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Message
re: Ranking Lebron's place in history
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:12 am to shel311
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:12 am to shel311
quote:
So, titles are vastly overvalued then, no?
Not really, You just can't win one by yourself. Evry great player that has won a title has always had that one or two others to get them over the hump. I still believe that MJ would still be considered as good as he is even without 6 titles. Hell I rate Hakeem as the 3rd best center in history and he has only two titles.
1
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:13 am to RonBurgundy
To get off the Magic thing for a second, I'm obviously not asking you to go one by one with each guy ahead of Lebron and why, but how is Lebron's level of play not top 10? I can't envision a scenario where 10 guys have played the game better than Lebron has. I just can't. His production/efficiency is mindboggling.
I just think the things he is doing are being severely underrated. I don't know why, they just are.
I just think the things he is doing are being severely underrated. I don't know why, they just are.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:15 am to dukke v
quote:
Not really
But...
quote:
I still believe that MJ would still be considered as good as he is even without 6 titles
Then you agree with me.
So a 4 title difference would not change him as a player one bit. That's titles being overvalued.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:32 am to shel311
quote:
So a 4 title difference would not change him as a player one bit
IMO... NO. If Lebron wins two titles and say MJ had won just two. From what I have seen from both makes me still lean toward MJ.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:35 am to dukke v
quote:I agree with all of this, but that is not what I'm trying to say.
If Lebron wins two titles and say MJ had won just two. From what I have seen from both makes me still lean toward MJ
If MJ at 2 titles is the same as MJ at 6 titles, like you said, that basically is saying that titles are overvalued when judging players. THat is all.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:37 am to shel311
quote:
His production
production is sometimes overvalued, as silly as it sounds. Not that this is the case with LeBron, but there are plenty of stat stuffers(SAR). In the NBA, lots of guys(Bron included-not hating) are astutely aware of their numbers in game, which to me is fricking crazy, but you see guys actively looking for triple doubles and the like. You know Wilt's assist story by now. So production does not tell the whole story of the player.
I personally want LeBron to master a skill first, which I think he could be a master post player. In my top 10, I have 10 guys who I think are better than that I don't he'll surpass. When the explosiveness leaves him, you'll get to see the essence of his game.
Guys who I think are historically better than LeBron:(in no order)
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Irving
Moses
Karl
West
Oscar
Isiah
off the top of my head. He can pass Karl, maybe Moses,Dr.J and West, I don't see him passing the other guys.
ETA: this is a little Bron hating, but he's also a flopper. I wouldn't categorize any of the listed above as floppers.That knocks him down a peg in my book.
This post was edited on 6/21/12 at 10:43 am
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:44 am to shel311
quote:
If MJ at 2 titles is the same as MJ at 6 titles, like you said, that basically is saying that titles are overvalued when judging players. THat is all.
I can roll with this.BUT I still stand behind my original list of.
MJ
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:45 am to shel311
I understand the logic here that the player is the same player with or without titles. But, I still think MJ wins 5 to 6 without Pippen as long as he has another decent player.
To me part of what made Jordan so great is that besides him and Pippen, the rest of the team was complete garbage and he still won that many championships.
To me part of what made Jordan so great is that besides him and Pippen, the rest of the team was complete garbage and he still won that many championships.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:46 am to RonBurgundy
Meh.
No need for us to go on and nitpick on each guy but there are guys on that list who, whether they mastered a skill or not, have never been as good as Lebron this season, IMO.
I'll leave it there.
Oh, and Chris Paul is better than Isaiah Thomas, and I mean that.
/ runs away
No need for us to go on and nitpick on each guy but there are guys on that list who, whether they mastered a skill or not, have never been as good as Lebron this season, IMO.
I'll leave it there.
Oh, and Chris Paul is better than Isaiah Thomas, and I mean that.
/ runs away
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:47 am to treble hook
quote:
the rest of the team was complete garbage and he still won that many championships.
that's bullshite. Bulls had good shooters and good defensive interior players. As well as a great sixth man.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:48 am to shel311
quote:
Oh, and Chris Paul is better than Isaiah Thomas
speaking of underrated on the MSB...
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:50 am to RonBurgundy
quote:Paul?
speaking of underrated on the MSB
We can team up for that cause!!!!
This post was edited on 6/21/12 at 10:51 am
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:56 am to rollthatback
quote:
I disagree. Lebron is a better basketball player right now that than the other three ever were. No more time is needed. Lebron is the most-efficient, most athletic, and best defensive player out of the four. (albeit, I'm not saying it isn't close, but I think that looking at it rationally will lead you to this conclusion).
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. The dude is great yes but Bird Magic and Shaq are leaps and bounds better. I don't think these threads should be started until after Lebron is retired. I think he could be top 10 all time for sure. But to say he is better than Bird Magic and Shaq is unbelievable.
1. Magic.
2. Bird
3. Shaq
4 Lebron
(just for right now) Brons jumper isn't efficient as it used to be. He's a better player when he attacks the basket. It's almost guranteed free throws or a lay up.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 11:01 am to shel311
quote:
We can team up for that cause!!!!
Let's see if Paul can last five more seasons first. That knee is getting any younger and I wouldnt be shocked if he were out of the league a la Roy in 5 years.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 11:11 am to RonBurgundy
quote:
that's bullshite. Bulls had good shooters and good defensive interior players. As well as a great sixth man
Come on man. Tony Kukoc?
Posted on 6/21/12 at 11:17 am to treble hook
Posted on 6/21/12 at 11:37 am to RonBurgundy
Alright he's not complete garbage but MJ still wins however many championships he wants with or without Kukoc
Posted on 6/21/12 at 11:42 am to treble hook
Lebron is cramptastic
Please Lord heal this man before game 5
Please Lord heal this man before game 5
Posted on 6/21/12 at 11:46 am to stapuffmarshy
Sounds like somebody got their jimmies rustled.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 12:08 pm to shel311
I'll take a middle road on the question.
I'd have LeBron 4th on that list-- and as the 2nd best SF to ever play the game.
BUT
He's still a Top 10 type player, *already*, for what he has done and is doing at his peak. The guy is ridiculous-- I don't know if we have an apt comparison as to anyone who has ever had the league tilted their way just by a combination of natural talent and league rules-- maybe Mikan in the early 50s, or Wilt in the late 60s, or Jordan about 1991, or Shaq about 1999.
Honestly, the only guy I can compare him with and find a ton of similarity is Wilt. He's an incredibly gifted basketball player, and is very capable of a resume that is Top 5 worthy-- but it is a work that is still in progress, and will only be truly appreciated when he is gone.
Then we can argue about the next guy being 'better than that old guy LeBron was, back in the days when they didn't play defense like they do now'.
I'd have LeBron 4th on that list-- and as the 2nd best SF to ever play the game.
BUT
He's still a Top 10 type player, *already*, for what he has done and is doing at his peak. The guy is ridiculous-- I don't know if we have an apt comparison as to anyone who has ever had the league tilted their way just by a combination of natural talent and league rules-- maybe Mikan in the early 50s, or Wilt in the late 60s, or Jordan about 1991, or Shaq about 1999.
Honestly, the only guy I can compare him with and find a ton of similarity is Wilt. He's an incredibly gifted basketball player, and is very capable of a resume that is Top 5 worthy-- but it is a work that is still in progress, and will only be truly appreciated when he is gone.
Then we can argue about the next guy being 'better than that old guy LeBron was, back in the days when they didn't play defense like they do now'.
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