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re: Would you support government or Christian’s in the United States?

Posted on 4/17/24 at 7:42 am to
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
73196 posts
Posted on 4/17/24 at 7:42 am to
quote:

My replies have been more than that from the beginning, including in this last post.


No, they haven't.

You're trying to conflate objective with unchanging. That isn't what objective means. If you can't admit that, there is no discussion to be had.

Objective morality does not exist. It doesn't matter to me if you agree with that or not.
Posted by RCDfan1950
United States
Member since Feb 2007
35063 posts
Posted on 4/17/24 at 8:27 am to
Thomas Sowell's brilliant essay on "First Principle (or Premise, I can't remember) proves what is evident in this thread. Such being that once one CHOOSES their First Principle, all perspectives/assessments flow from that subjective basis.

Squirrel denies the existence of God, and therein the/his idea of an objective Morality ceases to exist. The idea of a Nature-based (non-Spiritual/God) then becomes the default and derivative principle, from which all other rationalizations flow. The merciless efficiency of Mother Nature's "survival of the fit(test) cannot be denied, albeit if the Biblical narrative of "sewn in corruption, raised incorruptible" applies...than said Process is merely a seemingly 'Natural' evolutionary 'means to an end', of the which the ultimate end is the realization by self-aware entities that they are (may be) the product of Self Aware Energy. All is Energy, and the FACT that we are self-aware is proof sufficient that Energy (in complex entity manifestations) can be and is Self Aware. "I am, the I Am", is the Biblical definition of God. With "God is Love" and "God is Light" both not far behind.

The existence of God is simply whether or not the total Energy Reservoir of the which ALL potential therein flows...IS SELF AWARE. I.e., that said Energy Reservoir has a form of complex unity that reflect it's 'volume'. We - our 'volume' - are relatively very small ("Children"), albeit as Decarte affirmed, "I know that I am".

Although belief/non-belief in God in regard to the Individual is a subjective choice, from which all rationalizations flow from, there is little doubt of what non-belief will ultimately result in. Such being the default of a spiritually-non-existent Mother Nature as the ultimate authority, and the competition and predicted Biblical narrative of "wailing and gnashing of teeth". The opposite (absolute moral authority based on the idea of Absolute Unity via a Spiritual God/Love), is the only Idea sufficiently powerful enough to unify Humanity in a way that results in a/the state of 'Heaven'. Heaven being the Spiritual Ideal, of total spiritual unity in all of the supposedly disunified and competing 'Parts'.

Squirrel gets my respect for his extraordinary efforts and knowledge of the theological history of Belief in God, but given argument of Energy being essentially Self Aware, then unless and until Squirrel or others can discredit the rationality of said argument, the their points and this 'debate' is simply egotistical folly. And there remains but for each individual to experience the consequences of their Belief/Non-Belief. "By their fruits ye will know them", and I suspect that non-believers may experience and even 'worship' Love as the highest value, but the disunifying power (Evil?) of the which will then be manifest in the simple minds of the human species, will destroy the fertile ground wherein love may grow and bear the fruit of 'Heaven'.

It's either-or. There is no middle ground. Either God (Spiritual Awareness) innately exist in/as Energy, or it doesn't. With Heaven or Hell flowing from that subjective choice.

(Edit for minor bs. I did it again. Thank Jesus for Mercy )
This post was edited on 4/17/24 at 8:36 am
Posted by Prodigal Son
Member since May 2023
726 posts
Posted on 4/17/24 at 5:17 pm to
quote:

Objective morality does not exist.

Is that statement objectively true? Or, is that just like, your opinion, man?

Before we get to objective morality, let’s first establish whether or not truth is objective or subjective. Since you like to use terminology as a means to evade arguments, I’ll provide you with dictionary definitions of the applicable terms.

Truth: (noun)

- the true or actual state of a matter:
He tried to find out the truth.

- conformity with fact or reality; verity:
the truth of a statement.

- a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like:
mathematical truths.

- the state or character of being true.

- actuality or actual existence.

- an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.

- (often initial capital letter)
ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience:
the basic truths of life.

- agreement with a standard or original.
accuracy, as of position or adjustment.


Objective: (adjective)
- not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased:

- being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject (opposed to subjective).

- of or relating to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

Morality: (noun)
- conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.

- moral quality or character.

- virtue in sexual matters; chastity.

- a doctrine or system of morals.

- moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.


Do you agree with these standard definitions? If not, please explain. I’ll proceed as though you do. Let’s disregard the religious implications, and just focus on the logic, rationality, and the day to day consequences of a life ruled by subjective standards of truth and morality.

Is truth objective or subjective? I’m not talking about opinions or preferences. I’m talking about facts. Does truth exist independently of perception? Is it created? Or discovered? Does the truth change? If so, how can you know that you know the truth? There is no better modern example of this than gender identity. Is a man, pretending to be a woman, in truth, a woman?



Why do we have laws? What are they based on? If objective morality does not exist, then under what subjective circumstances is it morally acceptable to rape an infant? According to whom or what? If the Nazis would have won the war, would their actions then be morally right? When good and faithful husband’s wife commits adultery (or vice versa), does it not always negatively impact their marriage and children? When someone steals from you, do you not say that they “ought” not have done so?

The truth is, that we live in a world that is governed by an objective baseline of truth and morality; a system that works so well, that it overcomes the inefficiency of those who do not abide by it, and affords you the freedom to reject it. I’d love to hear your case for subjective truth and morality.
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