Maybe, maybe not. I don’t have all scripture committed to memory. But it seems like a logical conclusion to draw based on the overarching narrative of the Bible.

quote:
Ok, in the first examples, would you agree that Deuteronomy 6 is talking about that wrath and punishment thing you mentioned?

Not necessarily. While it harkens back to times of punishment for disobedience, such as Egyptian slavery, and wandering the wilderness for 40 years; 6:16 is actually referencing Exodus 17:2-7, where the Israelites, not far removed from seeing the miracles that God performed in Egypt, began to immediately doubt His existence because they were thirsty.

God then commanded Moses to strike the rock, and then water flowed from it. The “testing” referred to here, is that mentality that immediately doubts God, when our own terms and conditions are not instantly met. 6:16 is telling us not to be like that.

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Would you then agree that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6 in Mark 4 and Luke 4?

Matthew 4, but yes.

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Would you then see that Jesus is sort of equating not testing God under any of those circumstances

There are a couple of glaring differences here. First , Satan tells Jesus to “throw yourself down.” Big difference between jumping (intentional) and falling (unintentional). That’s two different kinds of tests. Second, God is not commanding Jesus to jump- Satan is. What Satan is doing here, is similar to what the Israelites did at Massah, which is doubting God, and demanding that God perform some miracle in order to prove Himself. Which is why Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16.

God has done all the proving that is necessary for us to make a free will decision to believe in Him and trust in Him. No amount of miracles is going to override your free will, and force you to accept Him. Jesus said Luke 16:31 (ESV): 31 , ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”

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Posted by epbart

new york city

Member since Mar 2005

2930 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 7:01 pm to Prodigal Son

quote:
6:16 is actually referencing Exodus 17:2-7, where the Israelites, not far removed from seeing the miracles that God performed in Egypt, began to immediately doubt His existence because they were thirsty.

Really good post overall and this quoted part is consistent with what my thoughts are. Wanting water (and provisions as Squirrel put it) is not necessarily wrong, but these needs and appetites are used here to show how the Israelites broke down and turned away from God due to the desires of the flesh... as happens to nearly everyone in this world who faces one temptation or another.

And your discussion of Jesus covers that angle quite well, imho.

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Posted by Squirrelmeister

Member since Nov 2021

1900 posts

Posted on 2/29/24 at 8:44 pm to Prodigal Son

quote:
quote:
Ok, in the first examples, would you agree that Deuteronomy 6 is talking about that wrath and punishment thing you mentioned?
Not necessarily. While it harkens back to times of punishment for disobedience, such as Egyptian slavery, and wandering the wilderness for 40 years; 6:16 is actually referencing Exodus 17:2-7

Yep that’s what I was referring to. Yahweh was saying don’t test me (in reference to exodus/wildnerness bitching and moaning).

quote:
quote:
Would you then agree that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6 in Mark 4 and Luke 4?
Matthew 4, but yes.

Yes, my bad. I meant Matthew. Good, we agree on both of these things.

quote:
First , Satan tells Jesus to “throw yourself down.” Big difference between jumping (intentional) and falling (unintentional). That’s two different kinds of tests. Second, God is not commanding Jesus to jump- Satan is. What Satan is doing here, is similar to what the Israelites did at Massah, which is doubting God, and demanding that God perform some miracle in order to prove Himself. Which is why Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16.

Ok, Jesus says don’t test god (in that fashion). Don’t put God on the spot to perform a miracle to prove himself. We agree on this too!

So Elijah does the exact thing Deuteronomy and Jesus says NOT to do. Elijah put God on the spot to perform a miracle to prove himself. God delights in what he has told others not to do, and proceeds to set the wet bull carcass on fire and suck up all the water.

Do you see the contradiction? Do you see how there is not an objective truth on this subject?

quote:
God then commanded Moses to strike the rock, and then water flowed from it.

Not exactly. He told Moses to take his staff and tell the rock to yield its water. He didn’t command Moses to strike the rock, but he didn’t tell Moses NOT to strike the rock either. But that didn’t stop that ambiguous a-hole Yahweh from punishing Moses - because he struck the rock with his staff (twice), he’d never be allowed to set foot in the promised land. Adonai would kill Moses before he was to cross the Jordan, after he had been a faithful servant to Yahweh ever since meeting him in the (burning) bush.

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