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Started By
Message
re: Serbia-Kosovo conflict reigniting
Posted on 7/31/22 at 6:07 pm to AggieHank86
Posted on 7/31/22 at 6:07 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
You clearly know no history. That is not what happened. Isolated incidents, here and there? Sure, those are documented. But it was not the general rule.
There are few reliable historical records from that era to begin with. So to say that there were isolated incidents or massed conversions belies scholarship as the vast majority of the material we have from that time period is legend rather than actual history. What we do know, however, is that there were periods of religious tolerance followed by periods of persecution. Christians were treated as second class citizens in Islamic Spain while Jews and Muslims were likewise treated as second class citizens in Christian Spain.
quote:
I could cite you to 20 learned articles
Then do it.
Posted on 7/31/22 at 7:59 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
I could cite you to 20 learned articles Then do it.
CommieHank ain’t gonna cite shite
Posted on 7/31/22 at 9:33 pm to RollTide1987
This is a good, short summary, to get you started. Some excerpts:
quote:
One adjustment both communities were spared: changing their religion. Both Christians and Jews could convert, if they wished, but the victorious Muslims did not force either group to do so since according to Islamic law they were dhimmis, i.e. they enjoyed protection because they were Ahl al-Kitab, “Peoples of the Book” whose faith was founded on revelation. (The “Book” was the Bible, a partial and incomplete revelation of God’s word, which was fully disclosed in the Qur’an.)
This protection afforded to Christians and Jews was a religious obligation founded on sharia, or traditional Islamic law, and not subject to the whims of politics, at least in theory.
quote:In other words, there was no massive, forced conversion immediately after the Conquest. Conversion of the majority of the populace was a slow process.
By virtue of isolation, rural areas contained a substantial number of Christians, even a majority according to the observation made by the Arab geographer, Ibn Hawqal, on a visit to al-Andalus in 948.
Posted on 7/31/22 at 9:52 pm to RollTide1987
Here is a more scholarly work, focused upon two issues. First, identifying WHEN conversion peaked. Second, examining WHY Iberians converted.
As to the first question, the author examines a number of theories but reaches no definitive conclusion on a specific date during the first two centuries. As to OUR point (forced military conversion) immediately after the Conquest, the second half of the paper is instructive. It discusses half a dozen reasons for conversion in the first two centuries of Muslim rule. “Compulsion” is not even ONE of them.
As to the first question, the author examines a number of theories but reaches no definitive conclusion on a specific date during the first two centuries. As to OUR point (forced military conversion) immediately after the Conquest, the second half of the paper is instructive. It discusses half a dozen reasons for conversion in the first two centuries of Muslim rule. “Compulsion” is not even ONE of them.
This post was edited on 7/31/22 at 9:54 pm
Posted on 7/31/22 at 10:09 pm to RollTide1987
This should give you more to chew on.. Excerpts:
quote:
Muslim Arabs substituted the Visigoths as rulers over the local Hispano-Roman population, who were (even if only nominally) Christians and whose languages were Latin and Romance. They, together with the Jews, became "protected peoples" (dhimmis ), being allowed to preserve their religion and their community life, although always in a position of subordination to the Muslims.
quote:
Latin culture was still predominant in the ninth century, but in the tenth century the Christians of al-Andalus started to translate their religious literature (the Psalms, the canons of the Visigothic church) into Arabic.
quote:
In the tenth century, Arabic became the predominant written language and in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the predominant spoken language. Arabic monolingualism (with diglossia between written Arabic and the spoken dialects) became the norm from the thirteenth century onward.
quote:
In opposition to what happened with Latin and Romance language and culture, the Jews of al-Andalus were able to maintain Hebrew as their religious and literary language and it became pivotal in the defence of their cultural identity, while at the same time they carried out a deep absorption of Arabic language and culture.
Posted on 8/1/22 at 11:49 am to RollTide1987
quote:
There are few reliable historical records from that era to begin with.
There are plenty of robust reliable historical records from that era of Spain. From extant pieces of Rabi ibn Zayd's (Christian name being Recemundus) to Constantine Porphyrogenitus's De Administro Imperio to the works of Ibn Said to Ibn al-Qutiyya to John of St Arnoul's time in Spain to Ademar of Chabannes to many many others.
quote:
So to say that there were isolated incidents or massed conversions belies scholarship as the vast majority of the material we have from that time period is legend rather than actual history.
It really isn't. That doesn't mean their weren't forced conversions, but this statement by itself is absolutely not true.
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