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SouthernRabbit
| Favorite team: | Alabama |
| Location: | Gulf Shores, Alabamma |
| Biography: | Lived in Louisiana 28 years |
| Interests: | Study of History and the Bible |
| Occupation: | Minister, Sign Painter, Artist |
| Number of Posts: | 18 |
| Registered on: | 2/21/2012 |
| Online Status: | Not Online |
Recent Posts
Message
re: Saturday's dominance shows this is still Les Miles' neighborhood
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/26/13 at 8:36 pm to MrWalkingMan
I question whether Copeland even fumbled the ball. The Alabama linebacker, Tana Patrick, very deliberately -- probably not just as an opportunistic afterthought -- knocked the ball out of Copeland's grasp.
I say this possibly because of personal experience. We had just moved to north Florida from north Mississippi in 1959, where as a high school junior I had gained 5 or 600 yards in 1958 from my left halfback position. In our first game in Florida, my "new" Florida quarterback, the very first time I "received" a handoff from him, off right tackle, slammed the ball into my left (upper) arm and the ball went caroming off in front of me five or ten yards, and was covered by the opposing team. No way I fumbled that ball. But the coaches took ME out of the game, not the QB, and I didn't get back into that game on offense.
If you want to say that Copeland fumbled the ball as a "sin of omission" -- he omitted sufficiently covering it up with two hands -- maybe so. But it cannot be denied that the Alabama linebacker, Patrick, was the one who performed the "act of COMmission."
Verne Lundquist branded the play immediately as a fumble by Copeland. My immediate thought was, "Well, Verne, you never carried the football either, did you?"
You learn as a runner pretty quick to carry the ball as snugly as the situation seems to call for. My other immediate thoughts were these: (1) Copeland is a MAN -- "Who's strong enough to knock the ball out of HIS grasp?" Surely this COULD have played into Copeland's own thinking. (2) "I'm already about to cross the goal line with the ball; what could happen at THIS point?"
Going for the ball as they go for it today did not become nearly so prominent until the more athletic Black backs began swinging the ball out from their bodies. This of course was decades ago. But what a photogenic pose it was, until the tacklers (and certainly their coaches)starting catching on: "Say, we could take over the ball instead of just downing the runner, if you would just take a good swat at that thing."
But Copeland, though we didn't get a good view of it on TV, apparently had the ball tucked away just fine. Linebacker Patrick, with a deftly placed swat, knocked it out from his grasp.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Originally, the phrase "carrying the ball like a loaf of bread" pertained to the old inexperienced white-boy's way of tucking the ball snugly under his arm, so that both ends of the ball protruded, front and back, under his carrying arm.
Coaches would naturally holler at him in practice, saying,"Boy, quit carrying that thing like a loaf of bread!" The danger was obvious -- all a tackler had to do was tap the ball from the front or back of the runner, and out it would come onto the turf.
When the more athletic Black backs began swinging the ball out from their body, the phrase "carrying the ball like a loaf of bread" was transferred -- "flipped," as it were -- from identifying a clumsy hold of the ball under one's arm -- to the very opposite action, that of swinging the ball out from one's body.
Copeland was doing neither -- he seems to have had the ball tucked correctly, but he lost it anyhow. My guess is that the Alabama linebacker was specifically trained by his coaches how to take a swat at the ball when it is being carried correctly by the back.
I say this possibly because of personal experience. We had just moved to north Florida from north Mississippi in 1959, where as a high school junior I had gained 5 or 600 yards in 1958 from my left halfback position. In our first game in Florida, my "new" Florida quarterback, the very first time I "received" a handoff from him, off right tackle, slammed the ball into my left (upper) arm and the ball went caroming off in front of me five or ten yards, and was covered by the opposing team. No way I fumbled that ball. But the coaches took ME out of the game, not the QB, and I didn't get back into that game on offense.
If you want to say that Copeland fumbled the ball as a "sin of omission" -- he omitted sufficiently covering it up with two hands -- maybe so. But it cannot be denied that the Alabama linebacker, Patrick, was the one who performed the "act of COMmission."
Verne Lundquist branded the play immediately as a fumble by Copeland. My immediate thought was, "Well, Verne, you never carried the football either, did you?"
You learn as a runner pretty quick to carry the ball as snugly as the situation seems to call for. My other immediate thoughts were these: (1) Copeland is a MAN -- "Who's strong enough to knock the ball out of HIS grasp?" Surely this COULD have played into Copeland's own thinking. (2) "I'm already about to cross the goal line with the ball; what could happen at THIS point?"
Going for the ball as they go for it today did not become nearly so prominent until the more athletic Black backs began swinging the ball out from their bodies. This of course was decades ago. But what a photogenic pose it was, until the tacklers (and certainly their coaches)starting catching on: "Say, we could take over the ball instead of just downing the runner, if you would just take a good swat at that thing."
But Copeland, though we didn't get a good view of it on TV, apparently had the ball tucked away just fine. Linebacker Patrick, with a deftly placed swat, knocked it out from his grasp.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Originally, the phrase "carrying the ball like a loaf of bread" pertained to the old inexperienced white-boy's way of tucking the ball snugly under his arm, so that both ends of the ball protruded, front and back, under his carrying arm.
Coaches would naturally holler at him in practice, saying,"Boy, quit carrying that thing like a loaf of bread!" The danger was obvious -- all a tackler had to do was tap the ball from the front or back of the runner, and out it would come onto the turf.
When the more athletic Black backs began swinging the ball out from their body, the phrase "carrying the ball like a loaf of bread" was transferred -- "flipped," as it were -- from identifying a clumsy hold of the ball under one's arm -- to the very opposite action, that of swinging the ball out from one's body.
Copeland was doing neither -- he seems to have had the ball tucked correctly, but he lost it anyhow. My guess is that the Alabama linebacker was specifically trained by his coaches how to take a swat at the ball when it is being carried correctly by the back.
re: Cautionary note to the "Fire Les" crowd
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/24/13 at 2:48 pm to TigerB8
TigerB8, your post may be the best post I've ever seen on Tiger Rant.
As a fan base, much of the time you are in sort of the same kind of Catch 22 situation that a coaching staff finds itself in all the time. They look at a "'tweener" ballplayer who has ability but lacks maturity in one way or another, and they are torn as to whether to Redshirt him or "burn his Redshirt."
Baptist churches go through this sort of thing all the time. They will lose a pastor and then chose a "pulpit committee" who will go out and search for the next pastor. They will start out "in the George Truett stage." Dr. Truett was the most famous pastor ever in the Convention -- pastor of the huge First Baptist Church of Dallas for about forty years. After a while the committee realizes that Dr. Truett is not available, and so now they are ready to deal with the reality of the situation.
What did Notre Dame do when they lost Rockne, or Leahy, or Parseghian? It would seem that a lot of you younger LSU fans think that no fan base has ever gone through what you have gone through. As Scarlett says at the end of "Gone with the Wind," "Tomorrow is another day." The Sun comes up, just like it always did, and you play with the hand you've been dealt.
After Bear Bryant, Alabama went through Perkins, Curry, Stallings, Franchione, Price, and Shula -- and there sat Saban, ready to make a move. What do you think we Alabama fans did during that interim? Whatever we went through, we went through what you have been going through.
As a fan base, much of the time you are in sort of the same kind of Catch 22 situation that a coaching staff finds itself in all the time. They look at a "'tweener" ballplayer who has ability but lacks maturity in one way or another, and they are torn as to whether to Redshirt him or "burn his Redshirt."
Baptist churches go through this sort of thing all the time. They will lose a pastor and then chose a "pulpit committee" who will go out and search for the next pastor. They will start out "in the George Truett stage." Dr. Truett was the most famous pastor ever in the Convention -- pastor of the huge First Baptist Church of Dallas for about forty years. After a while the committee realizes that Dr. Truett is not available, and so now they are ready to deal with the reality of the situation.
What did Notre Dame do when they lost Rockne, or Leahy, or Parseghian? It would seem that a lot of you younger LSU fans think that no fan base has ever gone through what you have gone through. As Scarlett says at the end of "Gone with the Wind," "Tomorrow is another day." The Sun comes up, just like it always did, and you play with the hand you've been dealt.
After Bear Bryant, Alabama went through Perkins, Curry, Stallings, Franchione, Price, and Shula -- and there sat Saban, ready to make a move. What do you think we Alabama fans did during that interim? Whatever we went through, we went through what you have been going through.
re: Josh Frazier commits to Alabama
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/24/13 at 12:02 am to Garfield
Garfield
You have put your finger on something that is noticeable about the state of Louisiana, that sets the state of Louisiana off from other Southern states, and which has a way of turning people off who are from other Southern states.
In the first place, I don't think Louisiana people want to be like people in other Southern states. All you have to do to gather this is to read their comments about us as being "inbred," etc. It most probably has to do with the fact that the rest of the South is basically Protestant, and Louisiana has a very strong Catholic heritage.
Louisiana is a culture apart from the rest of the South, even though such a definition is becoming a thing of the past because of the intermingling of cultures due to travel, mass media, etc. But that doesn't deter the basic Louisianan from his close-knit existence with others in his state. He has, basically, an attitude of "it's us against the world."
When it comes to his football, the Louisianan has a difficult time separating his feelings of being superior to other Southerners, when the football team of another Southern state is superior to his Louisiana football team. It makes no sense to him. "He is inferior to me; how can his football team be superior to mine?"
It is a fact that per capita Louisiana puts out more good football players than most if not all other states do. This only compounds the Louisianan's confusion when his team gets beat by another Southern team. And that includes in recruiting. You "can't blame" him for wanting desperately to keep his blue-chippers at home at his school. What is hard for us "outsiders" to take, though, is his inability to see himself as we see him and his confusion about the whole thing.
You have put your finger on something that is noticeable about the state of Louisiana, that sets the state of Louisiana off from other Southern states, and which has a way of turning people off who are from other Southern states.
In the first place, I don't think Louisiana people want to be like people in other Southern states. All you have to do to gather this is to read their comments about us as being "inbred," etc. It most probably has to do with the fact that the rest of the South is basically Protestant, and Louisiana has a very strong Catholic heritage.
Louisiana is a culture apart from the rest of the South, even though such a definition is becoming a thing of the past because of the intermingling of cultures due to travel, mass media, etc. But that doesn't deter the basic Louisianan from his close-knit existence with others in his state. He has, basically, an attitude of "it's us against the world."
When it comes to his football, the Louisianan has a difficult time separating his feelings of being superior to other Southerners, when the football team of another Southern state is superior to his Louisiana football team. It makes no sense to him. "He is inferior to me; how can his football team be superior to mine?"
It is a fact that per capita Louisiana puts out more good football players than most if not all other states do. This only compounds the Louisianan's confusion when his team gets beat by another Southern team. And that includes in recruiting. You "can't blame" him for wanting desperately to keep his blue-chippers at home at his school. What is hard for us "outsiders" to take, though, is his inability to see himself as we see him and his confusion about the whole thing.
re: Was the cupboard really bare when Saban got here?
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/21/13 at 6:54 pm to Brazos
The cupboard's never been bare in Louisiana. Per capita, it's got more football players than any other state in the union.
When LSU won the 1958 national championship -- and I've heard Billy Cannon say something like this on television -- it was a time when LSU had just about every ballplayer of any ability (who was white) that lived in the state of Louisiana. I may be wrong here, but it seems that I have checked this out years ago, and there was hardly a player to be found on those three platoons (White, Go, and Chinese Bandits) who was not from the state of Louisiana.
This was what was so great about the 1959 game when Cannon ran his RUN against Ole Miss. Why was LSU #1 in the country and Ole Miss was #3? Because not only did LSU have its state's prospects cornered, Ole Miss had the state of Mississippi cornered also. Ole Miss had three platoons just like LSU did -- just no catchy name like "Chinese Bandits."
I have to wonder if that 1959 night in Tiger Stadium (and in the Sugar Bowl a few months later) may have seen the greatest collection of white football players on any one field in the history of college football. Names like Jake Gibbs, Charley Flowers, Bobby Franklin for Ole Miss -- and those only scratch the surface -- Cowboy Woodruff was another, Doug Elmore. Cannon ran through the whole team -- those on the punt team, that is.
This was all before Bear Bryant came to Alabama in 1958 and began to change the landscape of Southern football. But I think that the account is true that has Bryant saying that if he were at LSU he'd never lose a game, what with all the talent in the state of Louisiana.
A similar situation existed in Alabama at that time to that in Louisiana and Mississippi. Alabama probably has never had quite the number of blue-chippers that Louisiana has had, year in and year out, but Alabama, I believe, is annually in the top 6-8 states, sort of like Ohio. Georgia, with its large population, is closer to Florida, then there is Texas and California.
When Bryant came to Alabama in 1958, Shug Jordan had just won a national championship at Auburn in 1957. Sometime if you want to take a minute, just get the Google Images photograph of the 1957 Auburn team picture. You will understand immediately why Bear Bryant referred to "those big fine Auburn boys." But it was no time at all before Bryant started harnessing the state's top recruits -- in spite of Shug Jordan.
In my opinion, Les Miles is to Saban sort of like what Shug Jordan was to Bryant -- Les may be a little better as a coach than Shug was. Had Bryant never have come to Alabama, Shug Jordan might have dominated that state for another decade and a half. Shug Jordan left a great name and tradition at Auburn, anyway.
Les Miles can coach football. He probably is a whole lot like his Michigan mentor, Bo Schembechler. Michigan, to my mind, is a lot like the state of Alabama. Michigan is historically blue-collar. Those people know the hardships of a northern winter and how the wind comes off the Great Lakes. Alabama has been historically poor, but the steel industry helped shape the state's blue-collar character.
Like Schembechler, Miles seems to believe, first and foremost, in lining up and "three yards and a cloud of dust" -- which saying to my mind was original with Schembechler's mentor, Woody Hayes.
Miles' strength is what Schembechler's seems to have been -- an ex-lineman's tough-as-nails approach that appeals to big, fine athletes and can win at an 80% clip. That's something to be proud of. Schembechler probably saw himself in Miles -- there is a photograph in which the look on Schembechler's face seems to say this, as he stands next to a seated Miles in uniform.
I was here in Alabama when Bryant was winning three national championships in the early sixties, and I've been here (again) since Saban came. I stayed loyal to the program during the not-so-good decades in between. I was proud to see coaches of varying ability come in and, sometimes, win ten games a season at a place that always had the potential to win more.
If you love college football, you will stick it out, no matter what comes your way. I like it because I like the education scene. The fans seem to be more sophisticated than pro football fans are. There is more room for divergence of styles of offense, and the turnover of players presents a different situation every year, whereas pro football teams remain much the same from season to season. The NFL draft system keeps the talent level much more uniform than in college football, where a good recruiter can make a big difference in his team's talent.
I will say this for Miles. I think he loves Louisiana, and he loves the challenge of playing in the SEC. He knows that Louisiana is a talent-rich state. He is a great recruiter, and he is determined to do what he can to keep Louisiana's blue-chippers at LSU.
When LSU won the 1958 national championship -- and I've heard Billy Cannon say something like this on television -- it was a time when LSU had just about every ballplayer of any ability (who was white) that lived in the state of Louisiana. I may be wrong here, but it seems that I have checked this out years ago, and there was hardly a player to be found on those three platoons (White, Go, and Chinese Bandits) who was not from the state of Louisiana.
This was what was so great about the 1959 game when Cannon ran his RUN against Ole Miss. Why was LSU #1 in the country and Ole Miss was #3? Because not only did LSU have its state's prospects cornered, Ole Miss had the state of Mississippi cornered also. Ole Miss had three platoons just like LSU did -- just no catchy name like "Chinese Bandits."
I have to wonder if that 1959 night in Tiger Stadium (and in the Sugar Bowl a few months later) may have seen the greatest collection of white football players on any one field in the history of college football. Names like Jake Gibbs, Charley Flowers, Bobby Franklin for Ole Miss -- and those only scratch the surface -- Cowboy Woodruff was another, Doug Elmore. Cannon ran through the whole team -- those on the punt team, that is.
This was all before Bear Bryant came to Alabama in 1958 and began to change the landscape of Southern football. But I think that the account is true that has Bryant saying that if he were at LSU he'd never lose a game, what with all the talent in the state of Louisiana.
A similar situation existed in Alabama at that time to that in Louisiana and Mississippi. Alabama probably has never had quite the number of blue-chippers that Louisiana has had, year in and year out, but Alabama, I believe, is annually in the top 6-8 states, sort of like Ohio. Georgia, with its large population, is closer to Florida, then there is Texas and California.
When Bryant came to Alabama in 1958, Shug Jordan had just won a national championship at Auburn in 1957. Sometime if you want to take a minute, just get the Google Images photograph of the 1957 Auburn team picture. You will understand immediately why Bear Bryant referred to "those big fine Auburn boys." But it was no time at all before Bryant started harnessing the state's top recruits -- in spite of Shug Jordan.
In my opinion, Les Miles is to Saban sort of like what Shug Jordan was to Bryant -- Les may be a little better as a coach than Shug was. Had Bryant never have come to Alabama, Shug Jordan might have dominated that state for another decade and a half. Shug Jordan left a great name and tradition at Auburn, anyway.
Les Miles can coach football. He probably is a whole lot like his Michigan mentor, Bo Schembechler. Michigan, to my mind, is a lot like the state of Alabama. Michigan is historically blue-collar. Those people know the hardships of a northern winter and how the wind comes off the Great Lakes. Alabama has been historically poor, but the steel industry helped shape the state's blue-collar character.
Like Schembechler, Miles seems to believe, first and foremost, in lining up and "three yards and a cloud of dust" -- which saying to my mind was original with Schembechler's mentor, Woody Hayes.
Miles' strength is what Schembechler's seems to have been -- an ex-lineman's tough-as-nails approach that appeals to big, fine athletes and can win at an 80% clip. That's something to be proud of. Schembechler probably saw himself in Miles -- there is a photograph in which the look on Schembechler's face seems to say this, as he stands next to a seated Miles in uniform.
I was here in Alabama when Bryant was winning three national championships in the early sixties, and I've been here (again) since Saban came. I stayed loyal to the program during the not-so-good decades in between. I was proud to see coaches of varying ability come in and, sometimes, win ten games a season at a place that always had the potential to win more.
If you love college football, you will stick it out, no matter what comes your way. I like it because I like the education scene. The fans seem to be more sophisticated than pro football fans are. There is more room for divergence of styles of offense, and the turnover of players presents a different situation every year, whereas pro football teams remain much the same from season to season. The NFL draft system keeps the talent level much more uniform than in college football, where a good recruiter can make a big difference in his team's talent.
I will say this for Miles. I think he loves Louisiana, and he loves the challenge of playing in the SEC. He knows that Louisiana is a talent-rich state. He is a great recruiter, and he is determined to do what he can to keep Louisiana's blue-chippers at LSU.
re: 1908 National Championship...Why doesn't LSU officially claim this?
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/20/13 at 3:44 pm to drdrfaulkner
I'm glad that this is being discussed among LSU fans.
It seems that the further away from the Bear Bryant years we have come, the harder it is for younger LSU fans to wrap their collective mind around the idea that there is anything distinctive about the history of Alabama football.
The reason for that may be that these younger LSU fans genuinely seem to remember as far back as Nick Saban at LSU -- and no further. They know that the great Billy Cannon led LSU to a storied national championship in 1958, and that he won the Heisman Trophy in 1959 with what might well have been the greatest run in college football history.
LSU has had two "perfect seasons" in its history -- that one in 1958 and this one under discussion in 1908. Actually, you could count other undefeated and untied seasons in LSU history -- 1895 (3-0-0), 1896 (6-0-0), 1898 (1-0-0), and 1905 (3-0-0). LSU, at the turn of the 20th century, had very creditable football teams.
One problem with any historical evaluation of Southern college football is that it grew up down in this part of the country away from the Press in the Northeast, Midwest, and even the Northwest, where teams such as Stanford and Washington were getting "ink" by about 1920. That "Northern Press," to my way of thinking, was still overrating Big Ten teams and Notre Dame as late as the 1960's and 1970's.
My college roommate at Samford University in 1960 was Wayne Atcheson, who is the man who came up with the five pre-Bryant national championships at Alabama, when Wayne was SID for Ray Perkins at the University of Alabama. This was about 1983. Wayne is now the librarian and curator for the Billy Graham Library and Museum, at Asheville, North Carolina. You are not going to find a more mild-mannered, well-meaning person in the country, in my opinion. He grew up near Clanton, Alabama as the son of a humble Baptist preacher. He was the sponsor-director of the University of Alabama chapter of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes for several years, even after he had left the SID position.
My impression of what Wayne did comes probably from the general impression we had in the sixties and seventies that the Northern Press had long since jumped on the Knute Rockne-Frank Leahy-Ara Parseghian bandwagon at Notre Dame. Curiously, Ohio State was a latecomer to this party by way of Woody Hayes' achievements in the fifties and sixties. Apparently Michigan had always been a juggernaut, and Michigan State under Duffy Daughtery also came into prominence during the fifties and sixties.
Sportswriter Beano Cook made the statement before his death a few years ago that the Notre Dame SID in the fifties, whose name escapes me, was one of the best ever at his job, and that this SID was the reason that Paul Hornung won the Heisman Trophy in 1956 as the Notre Dame quarterback on a 2-8 team. It is the only time, I believe, that the Heisman has ever been won by a player on a team with a losing record. Runners-up to Hornung that year included Jim Brown and Tennessee's Johnny Majors.
Wayne Atcheson chose as his five pre-Bryant national championship teams at Alabama the 1925 (10-0-0), 1926 (9-0-1), 1930 (10-0-0), 1934 (10-0-0), and 1941 (9-2-0) teams. The 1925 team beat Washington 20-19 in the Rose Bowl; the 1926 team, undefeated in the regular season, tied Stanford 7-7 in the Rose Bowl; the 1930 team beat Washington State 24-0 in the Rose Bowl; the 1934 team, with Bear Bryant as "the other end," beat Stanford 29-13 in the Rose Bowl; and the 1941 team beat Texas A&M 29-21 in the Cotton Bowl.
Marty Mule of New Orleans has written a large, well-done history of the Sugar Bowl, as well as a smaller book, a history of Tulane football. I think that if you were to read Peter Finney's history of LSU football, along with Mule's discussions of Tulane football, you would come to the conclusion that Tulane football, in spite of such legendary LSU players as Steve Van Buren and Y. A. Tittle, was probably at least as prominent as LSU football before the 1950's.
The great Tulane football coach in the 1920's (and maybe even '30s) was Clark Shaughnessy. If you were to look into the career of Shaughnessy, you would find that he was much like the great 49ers head coach Bill Walsh. Both men were brainy innovators and both coached at Stanford.
Here is the important point -- Shaughnessy's 1925 Tulane team was offered the chance to play Washington in the Rose Bowl -- but turned the chance down. The Rose Bowl committee then offered the chance to another Southern team -- the University of Alabama, who under Coach Wallace Wade proceeded to make history by being the first team from the South ever to play in the Rose Bowl. That Alabama team apparently surprised just about everyone by edging heavily favored Washington 20-19.
I challenge anyone on this Board -- if you are truly interested in this matter of Alabama football and its claims to national championships, then simply Google "Alabama wins the 1926 Rose Bowl." You will find that this was more than just another ball game. The major theme of historians of this event has been that, as far as many Southerners were concerned, it was as if the South had gotten back against the North for the first time since the Civil War.
Also please check out the list of early Rose Bowls. You will find, I think, that Alabama appeared in more Rose Bowls (during the '20s, '30s, and '40s) than all other Southern teams combined. Unfortunately I have to mention this -- LSU was never invited to the Rose Bowl.
The great LSU tradition is of Billy Cannon running for glory against Ole Miss in 1959 -- after LSU had won the National Championship in 1958 with an undefeated, untied season. I know I will sound like "Pug" in Herman Wouk's THE WINDS OF WAR, (or indeed Forrest Gump), but I met Billy Cannon in Baton Rouge three months before he ran The Run. I am all too aware of what I consider THE GREAT LSU FOOTBALL TRADITION. That Run, in my humble opinion, is the greatest event in the history of Southern football. It should be commemorated, also in my opinion, by a statue outside Tiger Stadium.
Wayne Atcheson wrote what he did in about 1983 because he felt that Notre Dame had been showered with glory by the Northern Press, while Alabama's achievements, highly valued by many Southerners, had been largely disregarded and forgotten by that same Northern Press. While that Press had spoken freely over the years about the great Rockne and Leahy teams as being national champions during the '20s, '30s, and '40s, remembrance of the great Rose Bowl teams of Alabama's during those same decades seemingly had gone by the wayside.
A corollary to this story is that an upstart newcomer, Robert Neyland of Tennessee, beat Wallace Wade's 1928 Alabama team 15-13. Coming on the heels of Alabama's appearances in the 1926 and 1927 Rose Bowls, this was an upset that "put Tennessee football on the map." It was not until the 1970's that Bear Bryant may have somewhat reduced the challenge of history provided by General Neyland's storied career at Tennessee, by beating Tennessee eleven straight times, 1971-1981.
It seems that the further away from the Bear Bryant years we have come, the harder it is for younger LSU fans to wrap their collective mind around the idea that there is anything distinctive about the history of Alabama football.
The reason for that may be that these younger LSU fans genuinely seem to remember as far back as Nick Saban at LSU -- and no further. They know that the great Billy Cannon led LSU to a storied national championship in 1958, and that he won the Heisman Trophy in 1959 with what might well have been the greatest run in college football history.
LSU has had two "perfect seasons" in its history -- that one in 1958 and this one under discussion in 1908. Actually, you could count other undefeated and untied seasons in LSU history -- 1895 (3-0-0), 1896 (6-0-0), 1898 (1-0-0), and 1905 (3-0-0). LSU, at the turn of the 20th century, had very creditable football teams.
One problem with any historical evaluation of Southern college football is that it grew up down in this part of the country away from the Press in the Northeast, Midwest, and even the Northwest, where teams such as Stanford and Washington were getting "ink" by about 1920. That "Northern Press," to my way of thinking, was still overrating Big Ten teams and Notre Dame as late as the 1960's and 1970's.
My college roommate at Samford University in 1960 was Wayne Atcheson, who is the man who came up with the five pre-Bryant national championships at Alabama, when Wayne was SID for Ray Perkins at the University of Alabama. This was about 1983. Wayne is now the librarian and curator for the Billy Graham Library and Museum, at Asheville, North Carolina. You are not going to find a more mild-mannered, well-meaning person in the country, in my opinion. He grew up near Clanton, Alabama as the son of a humble Baptist preacher. He was the sponsor-director of the University of Alabama chapter of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes for several years, even after he had left the SID position.
My impression of what Wayne did comes probably from the general impression we had in the sixties and seventies that the Northern Press had long since jumped on the Knute Rockne-Frank Leahy-Ara Parseghian bandwagon at Notre Dame. Curiously, Ohio State was a latecomer to this party by way of Woody Hayes' achievements in the fifties and sixties. Apparently Michigan had always been a juggernaut, and Michigan State under Duffy Daughtery also came into prominence during the fifties and sixties.
Sportswriter Beano Cook made the statement before his death a few years ago that the Notre Dame SID in the fifties, whose name escapes me, was one of the best ever at his job, and that this SID was the reason that Paul Hornung won the Heisman Trophy in 1956 as the Notre Dame quarterback on a 2-8 team. It is the only time, I believe, that the Heisman has ever been won by a player on a team with a losing record. Runners-up to Hornung that year included Jim Brown and Tennessee's Johnny Majors.
Wayne Atcheson chose as his five pre-Bryant national championship teams at Alabama the 1925 (10-0-0), 1926 (9-0-1), 1930 (10-0-0), 1934 (10-0-0), and 1941 (9-2-0) teams. The 1925 team beat Washington 20-19 in the Rose Bowl; the 1926 team, undefeated in the regular season, tied Stanford 7-7 in the Rose Bowl; the 1930 team beat Washington State 24-0 in the Rose Bowl; the 1934 team, with Bear Bryant as "the other end," beat Stanford 29-13 in the Rose Bowl; and the 1941 team beat Texas A&M 29-21 in the Cotton Bowl.
Marty Mule of New Orleans has written a large, well-done history of the Sugar Bowl, as well as a smaller book, a history of Tulane football. I think that if you were to read Peter Finney's history of LSU football, along with Mule's discussions of Tulane football, you would come to the conclusion that Tulane football, in spite of such legendary LSU players as Steve Van Buren and Y. A. Tittle, was probably at least as prominent as LSU football before the 1950's.
The great Tulane football coach in the 1920's (and maybe even '30s) was Clark Shaughnessy. If you were to look into the career of Shaughnessy, you would find that he was much like the great 49ers head coach Bill Walsh. Both men were brainy innovators and both coached at Stanford.
Here is the important point -- Shaughnessy's 1925 Tulane team was offered the chance to play Washington in the Rose Bowl -- but turned the chance down. The Rose Bowl committee then offered the chance to another Southern team -- the University of Alabama, who under Coach Wallace Wade proceeded to make history by being the first team from the South ever to play in the Rose Bowl. That Alabama team apparently surprised just about everyone by edging heavily favored Washington 20-19.
I challenge anyone on this Board -- if you are truly interested in this matter of Alabama football and its claims to national championships, then simply Google "Alabama wins the 1926 Rose Bowl." You will find that this was more than just another ball game. The major theme of historians of this event has been that, as far as many Southerners were concerned, it was as if the South had gotten back against the North for the first time since the Civil War.
Also please check out the list of early Rose Bowls. You will find, I think, that Alabama appeared in more Rose Bowls (during the '20s, '30s, and '40s) than all other Southern teams combined. Unfortunately I have to mention this -- LSU was never invited to the Rose Bowl.
The great LSU tradition is of Billy Cannon running for glory against Ole Miss in 1959 -- after LSU had won the National Championship in 1958 with an undefeated, untied season. I know I will sound like "Pug" in Herman Wouk's THE WINDS OF WAR, (or indeed Forrest Gump), but I met Billy Cannon in Baton Rouge three months before he ran The Run. I am all too aware of what I consider THE GREAT LSU FOOTBALL TRADITION. That Run, in my humble opinion, is the greatest event in the history of Southern football. It should be commemorated, also in my opinion, by a statue outside Tiger Stadium.
Wayne Atcheson wrote what he did in about 1983 because he felt that Notre Dame had been showered with glory by the Northern Press, while Alabama's achievements, highly valued by many Southerners, had been largely disregarded and forgotten by that same Northern Press. While that Press had spoken freely over the years about the great Rockne and Leahy teams as being national champions during the '20s, '30s, and '40s, remembrance of the great Rose Bowl teams of Alabama's during those same decades seemingly had gone by the wayside.
A corollary to this story is that an upstart newcomer, Robert Neyland of Tennessee, beat Wallace Wade's 1928 Alabama team 15-13. Coming on the heels of Alabama's appearances in the 1926 and 1927 Rose Bowls, this was an upset that "put Tennessee football on the map." It was not until the 1970's that Bear Bryant may have somewhat reduced the challenge of history provided by General Neyland's storied career at Tennessee, by beating Tennessee eleven straight times, 1971-1981.
re: What's it going to take for LSU to have a top notch media facility?
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/17/13 at 2:13 pm to TheLoupGarou
Quote: "I wouldn't be investing a lot of money in college football right now."
I would be much more passionate about the question of investing money in the Sports Media right now.
In my opinion, today's Sports Media is highly politicized, just as the "regular" Media is highly politicized. If you belong to the political party that is politicizing the Media, then sure, go for it -- pour your money into it.
Also in my opinion, one of the prime positions in this world today where you might perch yourself would be a place in the Media, including the Sports Media, the higher the better, one so remote from the populace it serves that you never have to answer to that populace, because now you are ensconced in an Ivory Tower, from which you can make your pronouncements and exercise your control over that upon which you make those pronouncements.
If you want your money to go to something like this, then again, have at it. I think that the New Media, with its new Technocracy, is so out of control right now that no one knows what direction it will take. My hope is that the next generation, who seem to be escaping their parents by dropping out from them through their own involvement into the new technological gadgets, will rectify what their parents have done and restore order to their Media Establishment.
I would be much more passionate about the question of investing money in the Sports Media right now.
In my opinion, today's Sports Media is highly politicized, just as the "regular" Media is highly politicized. If you belong to the political party that is politicizing the Media, then sure, go for it -- pour your money into it.
Also in my opinion, one of the prime positions in this world today where you might perch yourself would be a place in the Media, including the Sports Media, the higher the better, one so remote from the populace it serves that you never have to answer to that populace, because now you are ensconced in an Ivory Tower, from which you can make your pronouncements and exercise your control over that upon which you make those pronouncements.
If you want your money to go to something like this, then again, have at it. I think that the New Media, with its new Technocracy, is so out of control right now that no one knows what direction it will take. My hope is that the next generation, who seem to be escaping their parents by dropping out from them through their own involvement into the new technological gadgets, will rectify what their parents have done and restore order to their Media Establishment.
re: My Biggest complaint........ the Team quitting
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/15/13 at 10:43 am to The Mick
This is to reply to The Mick as to his statement about coaches that "faded and then returned to prominence."
Please accept what I say here as one person's opinion. I give it because I have had the experience of following LSU football as a sometime Louisianan who also happens to be an Alabama fan.
Based upon the fact that The Mick has brought up Bear Bryant as a prominent coach who "faded and came back," I offer the following.
Paul Dietzel, who won an LSU national championship in 1958, came to LSU from Kentucky, where he had been an assistant to Bear Bryant. Charley McClendon had been a player for Bryant at Kentucky. I suppose that Dietzel brought Charley Mac to LSU, having known him at Kentucky.
Charley Mac won his SEC championship at LSU in 1969. It is absolutely true that Bryant "faded" in 1969 and 1970 (6-5 and 6-5-1), then came back during the seventies with three more national championships and several SEC championships.
It is my opinion that last Saturday's game at Tuscaloosa was a benchmark in Nick Saban's career that corresponds to the situation Bear Bryant faced in 1970 and 1971. Saban's nemesis has been LSU and Les Miles, just as Tennessee (and in retrospect, General Robert Neyland)was Bryant's.
I can't with confidence rattle off all the figures, but I have run them before and I have run them by quite a few sportswriters over here. Right now there is a TV special in the works that is supposed to discuss this very subject, centering around the fact that Bryant began recruiting Black football players to Alabama in the early 1970's.
By the end of the 1960's Bryant realized that he could no longer win with the "two-fisted little Aggie," like he had done at A&M in the fifties and also at Alabama in the early sixties. The Game had caught up with him, in that football players were getting bigger and faster, and the Black athlete was changing the face of college football.
There is reason to believe that Alabama was not offered a Rose Bowl berth after the undefeated and untied 1961 national championship season because Alabama had no Black players; and that his undefeated and untied 1966 Alabama team with Kenny Stabler at QB was denied the national championship for this same reason.
Bryant's problem was that he could not bring the Black athlete to Alabama. Facts have been upturned that show that he actually had a few Blacks in his practices during the late sixties. A Birmingham sportswriter has stated this in a recent article.
How was Bryant to handle his predicament? It seems obvious that he thought long and hard about it and came up with a three-part answer. First, he turned down the offer by the Miami Dolphins to be their head coach -- Don Shula took the job and the rest is history. Second, he asked his longtime friend Darrell Royal (U of Texas) to teach him the Wishbone offense. Third, he asked another longtime friend, John McKay (USC), to agree to play a home and home with Bama in 1970 and 1971.
That 1970 game with USC is the subject of the upcoming TV piece. Sam "Bam" Cunningham "liked to killed us" was Bryant's description of the game as USC drubbed Alabama 42-21 in Birmingham. Bryant apparently had planned this. He took Cunningham around to the Bama locker room after the game and said, "THIS is a football player." Right then and there he indoctrinated the South to the Black Athlete.
In the summer of 1971 Bryant forbade reporters or anyone else to see his practices while he and his coaches installed the Wishbone in secret behind closed doors. USC at their place was the first game of the 1971 season. Alabama surprised USC and everyone else, beating the Trojans and McKay 17-10.
Back to the subject of Saban and Miles -- and Bryant and Tennessee. I don't think this has ever been brought out into the open like it ought to be, that by 1970 Alabama and Tennessee were head to head -- EVEN -- in their longtime rivalry. I don't have the figures before me, but they were tied as to wins and losses.
I will venture this opinion here -- the reason Saban cracked a smile and jumped into McCarron's arms Saturday was that he broke the tie between himself and Miles as to regular season wins. The overall record between them now is 5-3.
Compare that to Bryant and Tennessee. Bryant had played at Alabama against General Neyland and Tennessee during the mid-thirties. He knew that Neyland year in and year out had gotten the better of Frank Thomas, Bryant's coach at Alabama. When Bryant was head coach at Kentucky, he never beat Neyland; he did tie him once.
When Bryant came to Alabama in 1958, Neyland was long gone, and Bama was ahead of Tennessee by one win in the overall series. By 1970, Tennessee had drawn even with Bama, which means that Bryant as head coach at Bama had lost one more game to Tennessee than he had won. In fact, he had lost three straight to them, in 1968, 1969, and 1970.
Bryant's old players will all tell you that he especially "loved to beat Tennessee." I think that these long term head-to-head records are important to head coaches, though they will never admit it. They look at "the papers" just like everyone else. Everyone has a tendency, after all, to ask the question, "How do I figure into all this?"
A determined Bryant, starting in 1971, beat Tennessee eleven straight years, and Tennessee has never caught back up. Right now I think that Alabama may be twelve games ahead in the series.
The question facing LSU people is this, isn't it? What is going to be the long term record between Saban and Miles? The same thing faces Alabama fans, doesn't it? Is 2013 what 1970 was to Bryant? Where does this go from here?
Just as Bryant faced the problem of not being able to compete (like he wanted to) without Black players, Saban has, in effect, had to compete with himself. How many head coaches build up a program into a powerhouse and then have to turn around and play that very same program?
THE QUESTION posed in this thread is whether Les Miles can come back from "fading away"? I have written this to try to point out that it is not just Les Miles and LSU who are involved in this situation. I don't propose to venture an opinion as to the Miles-LSU side of the question. I leave that to the appropriate people.
Please accept what I say here as one person's opinion. I give it because I have had the experience of following LSU football as a sometime Louisianan who also happens to be an Alabama fan.
Based upon the fact that The Mick has brought up Bear Bryant as a prominent coach who "faded and came back," I offer the following.
Paul Dietzel, who won an LSU national championship in 1958, came to LSU from Kentucky, where he had been an assistant to Bear Bryant. Charley McClendon had been a player for Bryant at Kentucky. I suppose that Dietzel brought Charley Mac to LSU, having known him at Kentucky.
Charley Mac won his SEC championship at LSU in 1969. It is absolutely true that Bryant "faded" in 1969 and 1970 (6-5 and 6-5-1), then came back during the seventies with three more national championships and several SEC championships.
It is my opinion that last Saturday's game at Tuscaloosa was a benchmark in Nick Saban's career that corresponds to the situation Bear Bryant faced in 1970 and 1971. Saban's nemesis has been LSU and Les Miles, just as Tennessee (and in retrospect, General Robert Neyland)was Bryant's.
I can't with confidence rattle off all the figures, but I have run them before and I have run them by quite a few sportswriters over here. Right now there is a TV special in the works that is supposed to discuss this very subject, centering around the fact that Bryant began recruiting Black football players to Alabama in the early 1970's.
By the end of the 1960's Bryant realized that he could no longer win with the "two-fisted little Aggie," like he had done at A&M in the fifties and also at Alabama in the early sixties. The Game had caught up with him, in that football players were getting bigger and faster, and the Black athlete was changing the face of college football.
There is reason to believe that Alabama was not offered a Rose Bowl berth after the undefeated and untied 1961 national championship season because Alabama had no Black players; and that his undefeated and untied 1966 Alabama team with Kenny Stabler at QB was denied the national championship for this same reason.
Bryant's problem was that he could not bring the Black athlete to Alabama. Facts have been upturned that show that he actually had a few Blacks in his practices during the late sixties. A Birmingham sportswriter has stated this in a recent article.
How was Bryant to handle his predicament? It seems obvious that he thought long and hard about it and came up with a three-part answer. First, he turned down the offer by the Miami Dolphins to be their head coach -- Don Shula took the job and the rest is history. Second, he asked his longtime friend Darrell Royal (U of Texas) to teach him the Wishbone offense. Third, he asked another longtime friend, John McKay (USC), to agree to play a home and home with Bama in 1970 and 1971.
That 1970 game with USC is the subject of the upcoming TV piece. Sam "Bam" Cunningham "liked to killed us" was Bryant's description of the game as USC drubbed Alabama 42-21 in Birmingham. Bryant apparently had planned this. He took Cunningham around to the Bama locker room after the game and said, "THIS is a football player." Right then and there he indoctrinated the South to the Black Athlete.
In the summer of 1971 Bryant forbade reporters or anyone else to see his practices while he and his coaches installed the Wishbone in secret behind closed doors. USC at their place was the first game of the 1971 season. Alabama surprised USC and everyone else, beating the Trojans and McKay 17-10.
Back to the subject of Saban and Miles -- and Bryant and Tennessee. I don't think this has ever been brought out into the open like it ought to be, that by 1970 Alabama and Tennessee were head to head -- EVEN -- in their longtime rivalry. I don't have the figures before me, but they were tied as to wins and losses.
I will venture this opinion here -- the reason Saban cracked a smile and jumped into McCarron's arms Saturday was that he broke the tie between himself and Miles as to regular season wins. The overall record between them now is 5-3.
Compare that to Bryant and Tennessee. Bryant had played at Alabama against General Neyland and Tennessee during the mid-thirties. He knew that Neyland year in and year out had gotten the better of Frank Thomas, Bryant's coach at Alabama. When Bryant was head coach at Kentucky, he never beat Neyland; he did tie him once.
When Bryant came to Alabama in 1958, Neyland was long gone, and Bama was ahead of Tennessee by one win in the overall series. By 1970, Tennessee had drawn even with Bama, which means that Bryant as head coach at Bama had lost one more game to Tennessee than he had won. In fact, he had lost three straight to them, in 1968, 1969, and 1970.
Bryant's old players will all tell you that he especially "loved to beat Tennessee." I think that these long term head-to-head records are important to head coaches, though they will never admit it. They look at "the papers" just like everyone else. Everyone has a tendency, after all, to ask the question, "How do I figure into all this?"
A determined Bryant, starting in 1971, beat Tennessee eleven straight years, and Tennessee has never caught back up. Right now I think that Alabama may be twelve games ahead in the series.
The question facing LSU people is this, isn't it? What is going to be the long term record between Saban and Miles? The same thing faces Alabama fans, doesn't it? Is 2013 what 1970 was to Bryant? Where does this go from here?
Just as Bryant faced the problem of not being able to compete (like he wanted to) without Black players, Saban has, in effect, had to compete with himself. How many head coaches build up a program into a powerhouse and then have to turn around and play that very same program?
THE QUESTION posed in this thread is whether Les Miles can come back from "fading away"? I have written this to try to point out that it is not just Les Miles and LSU who are involved in this situation. I don't propose to venture an opinion as to the Miles-LSU side of the question. I leave that to the appropriate people.
re: Glaring weaknesses after 2007
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/13/13 at 10:21 am to Tiger Vision
Several years ago Dave Dixon, who first envisioned building the Superdome, faced the question as to whether Louisiana ought to elect as governor a certain politician from New Orleans. That was about as loaded a question as this one is.
I'll step out on the limb and say it (again): The problems at LSU under the Miles regime have centered around the lack of communication between the head coach and the quarterback.
What that does is to jeopardize your team's chances of winning when close (big) games come down to crunch time.
The concept is basic: the quarterback is "the coach on the field." That's the way it was with Bear Bryant at Alabama and with Nick Saban at LSU, and it is the way it is with Saban at Alabama right now.
This is why I think that the whole country doesn't get it when it comes to calling A. J. McCarron a "Game Manager." And it's why the Heisman Trophy has never been awarded to an Alabama quarterback. The Heisman Trophy has come to be an award for the glitziest, show-and-tell performer in college football. Meanwhile, the Alabama quarterback quietly goes about his business and usually winds up winning two or three more games per year than the Heisman Trophy winner does.
When Saban was at LSU, he brought in two "game managers," Mauck and Flynn. Think of it -- Matt Mauck was a budding dentist. What did he do but come into the game and proceed to work, dentist-like, on the game plan. I would go to him today, based upon his work on the field for LSU.
The myth is that you can bring in the greatest athletes in America, turn them loose on the football field, and that they will then proceed to exhibit such overwhelming athleticism and swagger that all other teams are going to cower behind their benches, resulting in an undefeated season, a conference championship, and a national championship.
Bear Bryant's oft-quoted statement was, "You can't make chicken salad without chicken." He also said, "Good athletes don't come calling." But he also made a point of walking the campus with his quarterbacks the day before the Game. As Mal Moore said, the quarterbacks were "in" with Bryant. He called them his "coach on the field."
Nick Saban, I believe, was a state championship high school quarterback. He played defensive back at Kent State, probably because he was too short to play quarterback. His high school coach has said, "He made me look like a smart football coach."
It seems to me that Will Muschamp is the perfect example of the opposite type football coach. Muschamp walked on as a defensive back at Georgia. His pre-Florida experience in coaching has been as an assistant coach on defense. When he took over the Gators, a reporter asked him about offense, and he said," I don't know about offense. I leave that up to Charley Weiss."
Rah-Rah and athletic talent, if there is enough of it, may take a football team a long way. It even seems that it can create such intensity on the field that mistakes are eliminated. But if there is not that stabilizing force, that bond between the head coach and his quarterback, sooner or later the system springs a leak and then it begins to break down.
It's the same way in a marriage. You can marry the most beautiful woman on the planet, but if the two of you can't communicate, your marriage will last, on average, about seven years.
I'll step out on the limb and say it (again): The problems at LSU under the Miles regime have centered around the lack of communication between the head coach and the quarterback.
What that does is to jeopardize your team's chances of winning when close (big) games come down to crunch time.
The concept is basic: the quarterback is "the coach on the field." That's the way it was with Bear Bryant at Alabama and with Nick Saban at LSU, and it is the way it is with Saban at Alabama right now.
This is why I think that the whole country doesn't get it when it comes to calling A. J. McCarron a "Game Manager." And it's why the Heisman Trophy has never been awarded to an Alabama quarterback. The Heisman Trophy has come to be an award for the glitziest, show-and-tell performer in college football. Meanwhile, the Alabama quarterback quietly goes about his business and usually winds up winning two or three more games per year than the Heisman Trophy winner does.
When Saban was at LSU, he brought in two "game managers," Mauck and Flynn. Think of it -- Matt Mauck was a budding dentist. What did he do but come into the game and proceed to work, dentist-like, on the game plan. I would go to him today, based upon his work on the field for LSU.
The myth is that you can bring in the greatest athletes in America, turn them loose on the football field, and that they will then proceed to exhibit such overwhelming athleticism and swagger that all other teams are going to cower behind their benches, resulting in an undefeated season, a conference championship, and a national championship.
Bear Bryant's oft-quoted statement was, "You can't make chicken salad without chicken." He also said, "Good athletes don't come calling." But he also made a point of walking the campus with his quarterbacks the day before the Game. As Mal Moore said, the quarterbacks were "in" with Bryant. He called them his "coach on the field."
Nick Saban, I believe, was a state championship high school quarterback. He played defensive back at Kent State, probably because he was too short to play quarterback. His high school coach has said, "He made me look like a smart football coach."
It seems to me that Will Muschamp is the perfect example of the opposite type football coach. Muschamp walked on as a defensive back at Georgia. His pre-Florida experience in coaching has been as an assistant coach on defense. When he took over the Gators, a reporter asked him about offense, and he said," I don't know about offense. I leave that up to Charley Weiss."
Rah-Rah and athletic talent, if there is enough of it, may take a football team a long way. It even seems that it can create such intensity on the field that mistakes are eliminated. But if there is not that stabilizing force, that bond between the head coach and his quarterback, sooner or later the system springs a leak and then it begins to break down.
It's the same way in a marriage. You can marry the most beautiful woman on the planet, but if the two of you can't communicate, your marriage will last, on average, about seven years.
re: Don't fret, LSU fans...this run by Alabama will end soon...
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/13/13 at 2:36 am to Chicken
Basically, this is a fair assessment. It has its problems, but it is a fair assessment.
I knew Ron Gaspar personally. Ron was an ex-football coach who had suffered an accident that left him paralyzed and in a wheelchair. He wrote about football from his home in Chalmette and would come on WWL Radio with Hap Glaudi and provide football expertise for Hap's show. Ron was known around New Orleans as "Mr. Football."
When Bear Bryant visited the Chalmette area late in his career, he came to see Ron Gaspar. Ron made the obvious statement to Bryant that once Bryant retired, Alabama would have a difficult time replacing him. In this prediction Ron Gaspar proved to be prophetic, as obvious as his prophecy was.
The question, as I see it, is whether Alabama will learn from that experience. Or maybe it is rather that a Bryant or a Saban only comes along about once every fifty years, and the question then becomes, is Alabama going to be fortunate enough to get him when he does come along.
When Steve Spurrier had thrashed around in the pros and then at Duke University, Florida was able to pluck him off the coaching tree, probably for a number of reasons. Spurrier was a Florida alumnus, for one, and then he was, and is, a sort of maverick. He would reject an offer from Alabama right before Saban accepted his Alabama offer, and I don't think Spurrier would have accepted an Alabama offer back when he was at Duke. Spurrier is all about doing something that no one else has ever done, and it may be that he thought he could never top Bear Bryant anyhow.
It's not hard to see where LSU people are coming from. Your immediate concern is this bumper-crop recruiting class that is sitting out there in your state right now. You just came away from another concern, whether you could beat Alabama and Saban at this point in Les Miles' career. That didn't go so well, and so now you are rightfully concerned to keep Fournette and company -- what's left of it -- in state.
In spite of ourselves, we really can't predict the future. We don't KNOW how long Nick Saban is going to be at Alabama. You can come on here and SAY you know, probably in hopes of persuading Fournette and company, but the truth is, you can't predict what Nick Saban is going to do, and neither can I.
Aside from the fact that Saban is "poised on the your border" with his recruiting lieutenants, you probably don't feel much different than people in Georgia or Tennessee do about Saban and Alabama. He raids those two states for players too. Then again, you had him, and you lost him, and that's an experience they haven't had. But I wish you might, for example, just get on the Volquest or AJC Football Forums, and you would see that your feelings about Alabama and Nick Saban aren't that unique.
I will say this about Saban, and I think it needs to be said. He is recruiting as hard right now, as far as I can see, as he ever has. He spoke to and met with the recruits this past weekend after laying the LSU game plan aside.
Saban right now is two behind Bear Bryant (four to six) in number of national championships won. He said when he came to Bama that he intended to do better than ANYone else had ever done there. As has been pointed out on ESPN, Saban can more or less snap his fingers at Alabama, and the powers that be provide him with whatever he calls for, so far as the football program is concerned.
I recall something said on WWL by a member of the Sugar Bowl Committee about thirty years ago. He said that nothing ever gets done about a football program until the people supporting it get tired of the situation and do something about it. That happened at Alabama in the mid-nineteen-fifties and in the first decade of the 21st century. Who knows what the future holds? As Wayne Huizenga said, "It is what it is."
I knew Ron Gaspar personally. Ron was an ex-football coach who had suffered an accident that left him paralyzed and in a wheelchair. He wrote about football from his home in Chalmette and would come on WWL Radio with Hap Glaudi and provide football expertise for Hap's show. Ron was known around New Orleans as "Mr. Football."
When Bear Bryant visited the Chalmette area late in his career, he came to see Ron Gaspar. Ron made the obvious statement to Bryant that once Bryant retired, Alabama would have a difficult time replacing him. In this prediction Ron Gaspar proved to be prophetic, as obvious as his prophecy was.
The question, as I see it, is whether Alabama will learn from that experience. Or maybe it is rather that a Bryant or a Saban only comes along about once every fifty years, and the question then becomes, is Alabama going to be fortunate enough to get him when he does come along.
When Steve Spurrier had thrashed around in the pros and then at Duke University, Florida was able to pluck him off the coaching tree, probably for a number of reasons. Spurrier was a Florida alumnus, for one, and then he was, and is, a sort of maverick. He would reject an offer from Alabama right before Saban accepted his Alabama offer, and I don't think Spurrier would have accepted an Alabama offer back when he was at Duke. Spurrier is all about doing something that no one else has ever done, and it may be that he thought he could never top Bear Bryant anyhow.
It's not hard to see where LSU people are coming from. Your immediate concern is this bumper-crop recruiting class that is sitting out there in your state right now. You just came away from another concern, whether you could beat Alabama and Saban at this point in Les Miles' career. That didn't go so well, and so now you are rightfully concerned to keep Fournette and company -- what's left of it -- in state.
In spite of ourselves, we really can't predict the future. We don't KNOW how long Nick Saban is going to be at Alabama. You can come on here and SAY you know, probably in hopes of persuading Fournette and company, but the truth is, you can't predict what Nick Saban is going to do, and neither can I.
Aside from the fact that Saban is "poised on the your border" with his recruiting lieutenants, you probably don't feel much different than people in Georgia or Tennessee do about Saban and Alabama. He raids those two states for players too. Then again, you had him, and you lost him, and that's an experience they haven't had. But I wish you might, for example, just get on the Volquest or AJC Football Forums, and you would see that your feelings about Alabama and Nick Saban aren't that unique.
I will say this about Saban, and I think it needs to be said. He is recruiting as hard right now, as far as I can see, as he ever has. He spoke to and met with the recruits this past weekend after laying the LSU game plan aside.
Saban right now is two behind Bear Bryant (four to six) in number of national championships won. He said when he came to Bama that he intended to do better than ANYone else had ever done there. As has been pointed out on ESPN, Saban can more or less snap his fingers at Alabama, and the powers that be provide him with whatever he calls for, so far as the football program is concerned.
I recall something said on WWL by a member of the Sugar Bowl Committee about thirty years ago. He said that nothing ever gets done about a football program until the people supporting it get tired of the situation and do something about it. That happened at Alabama in the mid-nineteen-fifties and in the first decade of the 21st century. Who knows what the future holds? As Wayne Huizenga said, "It is what it is."
re: Growing number of Alabama fans in Louisiana
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/12/13 at 7:33 am to Paul Allen
If you want to see a special case of this kind of thing, just stay over here in Alabama for about six months.
I know that's a daunting thought, but the following will give you an example.
When Auburn won the national championship in 2010 with Cam Newton, this family business that I patronize suddenly presented their customers with funny, rather limp tiger tails, protruding (falling?) out of the trunks of their two vehicles, one tail per vehicle, parked out front in their parking lot.
After a year or two those tails finally disappeared.
Then, when Auburn beat Texas A&M a week or two ago, suddenly those two tails reappeared, and are once again hanging limply from the trunks of those two vehicles. They are a little more worn out looking and dingy, flatter, and more limp -- but there they are, just like clockwork.
I know that's a daunting thought, but the following will give you an example.
When Auburn won the national championship in 2010 with Cam Newton, this family business that I patronize suddenly presented their customers with funny, rather limp tiger tails, protruding (falling?) out of the trunks of their two vehicles, one tail per vehicle, parked out front in their parking lot.
After a year or two those tails finally disappeared.
Then, when Auburn beat Texas A&M a week or two ago, suddenly those two tails reappeared, and are once again hanging limply from the trunks of those two vehicles. They are a little more worn out looking and dingy, flatter, and more limp -- but there they are, just like clockwork.
re: Sorry guys... get off Miles' arse, this ain't on him.
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/11/13 at 5:13 pm to MontanaTiger
This is my answer to the question regarding early departures to the NFL and why McCarron and Mosley are still at Alabama this year.
I think that the emphasis upon leadership is stronger at Alabama than at other places, including LSU. McCarron is the leader on offense of this Alabama team, and Mosley is the leader on defense. It's that simple, really.
Saban probably brought the two of them into his office and told them, 'With you two as our leaders, we could make another run at a championship season.'
Saban is the one who brought in the two leaders that won your two recent national championships -- they were both named Matt -- Mauck and Flynn. Just as McCarron hasn't received credit from the national media regarding this part of his game, so Mauck and Flynn have never received credit for that part of their game.
Saban's policy obviously is to turn a guy loose to the pros if his athleticism is his chief asset. Seems that this is the best policy, particularly when you factor in the possibility that a career-ending injury can deprive a player of tens of millions of dollars.
Bear Bryant established the principle at Alabama that winning championships is the primary goal of the program. Nick Saban has followed that policy. It is possible that he learned it from his college coach at Kent State, Don James, who recently died but was a Bear Bryant aficionado if not an outright disciple of his. James won a national championship at Washington in about 1991.
"The Legends Tent on the Quad" is a game day tradition on the Alabama campus, when the "legends" of the past sign autographs for the fans before the game. Most of these "legends" contributed as players to a championship. This is looked upon as an honor by Alabama football players. This is this sort of thing, I think, that kept McCarron and Mosley at Alabama this year.
Quarterback Pat Trammell was Bryant's initial leader at Alabama when they won the 1961 AP and UP national championship. My New Orleans friend, who was AD and basketball coach at a private school there, is an Alabama fan. When Trammell died at age 28, my friend said, "He could have been governor of Alabama."
I think that the emphasis upon leadership is stronger at Alabama than at other places, including LSU. McCarron is the leader on offense of this Alabama team, and Mosley is the leader on defense. It's that simple, really.
Saban probably brought the two of them into his office and told them, 'With you two as our leaders, we could make another run at a championship season.'
Saban is the one who brought in the two leaders that won your two recent national championships -- they were both named Matt -- Mauck and Flynn. Just as McCarron hasn't received credit from the national media regarding this part of his game, so Mauck and Flynn have never received credit for that part of their game.
Saban's policy obviously is to turn a guy loose to the pros if his athleticism is his chief asset. Seems that this is the best policy, particularly when you factor in the possibility that a career-ending injury can deprive a player of tens of millions of dollars.
Bear Bryant established the principle at Alabama that winning championships is the primary goal of the program. Nick Saban has followed that policy. It is possible that he learned it from his college coach at Kent State, Don James, who recently died but was a Bear Bryant aficionado if not an outright disciple of his. James won a national championship at Washington in about 1991.
"The Legends Tent on the Quad" is a game day tradition on the Alabama campus, when the "legends" of the past sign autographs for the fans before the game. Most of these "legends" contributed as players to a championship. This is looked upon as an honor by Alabama football players. This is this sort of thing, I think, that kept McCarron and Mosley at Alabama this year.
Quarterback Pat Trammell was Bryant's initial leader at Alabama when they won the 1961 AP and UP national championship. My New Orleans friend, who was AD and basketball coach at a private school there, is an Alabama fan. When Trammell died at age 28, my friend said, "He could have been governor of Alabama."
re: so, this is really it? back to mediocrity?
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/10/13 at 11:24 am to udtiger
"Full" Disclosure -- I'm just another guy with an opinion, with all the human faults, who "feels" the "elephant" from my particular perspective. (The person who grabs the elephant's tail in the dark "sees" him differently than does the guy who grabs him by the trunk.)
UDTiger, I don't know who you are, but then again I do -- you are a knowledgeable football fan who has a good perspective on the history of your LSU football team. You have been around the block. It sounds like you may have even played a little football.
Most of my life has been spent in and around churches. Before you write me off as a sheltered nitwit, let me say this -- there may be just as much politics played in churches as is played in secular politics. (That is not God's fault, I hasten to add.) Point: Human beings play politics, and when it comes to college football, I can't see how it could be any different.
The University of Florida football program comes to mind. Why did Steve Spurrier leave there when it looked as if he might well surpass the record of Bear Bryant? When he tried to return to UF as head coach after a stint in the pros, he was told by the powers that be in Florida that he would have to "apply" just like anyone else. (Whereupon he told them to stuff it.)
Then along came Urban Meyer, who quickly doubled Spurrier's number of national championships. Meyer then contracted some mysterious illness, real or imagined, the ultimate result being that he also packed his bags. Now he's undefeated in two seasons at Ohio State. Whatever you think of Meyer, like Spurrier he is a high-level football coach who can take a loser and turn it into a winner. And he, like Spurrier, left the University of Florida.
Maybe it's just me, but I put "two and two" together (Spurrier plus Meyer), and I have to wonder if the political landscape surrounding the University of Florida football program has anything to do with the fact that somehow it could not, or did not, keep either one of those two top-flight coaches in that talent-laden environment.
As uncomfortable as it may or may not be, please permit me to look at the LSU football program. When LSU had its first national championship coach, he packed up about five years later and went to, of all places, Army. When he came back as AD, LSU unceremoniously fired him. And when LSU had a coach who may be the best since Bear Bryant, he won a national championship -- and left.
I saw the politics of Louisiana from what might be considered a tiny perspective. But I saw it: men of means building their little fiefdoms around the countryside. I saw firsthand how power was wielded by such a man in his "domain." And I surmised that his neighbor about five miles away must have been doing the same thing in HIS domain.
Isn't this what happens surrounding football programs? The decisions surrounding a program are made by "the heavy hitters." These men may be on "The Board" or on the Administration. The question boils down further though -- what are these men like, and how much of their power would they be willing to turn over to the guy who might run the football program to which they contribute money -- or administrate?
Could it be that the "heavy hitters" at one school are different regarding their wielding of power than those at another school? And could it be that a Nick Saban or a Bear Bryant would seek out that place where the heavy hitters are willing to turn over sufficient of their power and to allow, for all practical purposes, full autonomy to their football coach? And wouldn't it follow that if such a person as a Bryant or a Saban thought that he was not at such a place, he would move on?
The New Orleans Saints never got untracked AT ALL until Tom Benson bought the franchise. He forthwith brought in one of the strongest men in Pro Football -- Jim Finks. This, to my mind, showed the strength of Tom Benson. He was willing to turn over his franchise to the stewardship of a man of strength. In other words, because he was not threatened by Finks' strength, Tom Benson was able to turn the Saints into something they had never been.
The story of Bear Bryant at his first three stops -- Maryland, Kentucky, and Texas A&M -- illustrates, I think, what I am talking about. Bryant went 6-2-1 at Maryland in 1945 as a 32 year-old head coach fresh put of World War II. When the university president, Curly Byrd, who himself was an old football coach, reinstituted a player that Bryant had kicked off the team, Bryant immediately checked his job offers and went to the University of Kentucky. After going 60-23-5 in eight years and winning Kentucky's only SEC football championship (1950), Bryant was given a cigarette lighter by the heavy hitters, and basketball coach Adolph Rupp was given a Cadillac. Bryant promptly exited to Texas A&M, went 25-14-2 in four years, and won the Southwest Conference championship in 1956 after going 1-9 in 1954. His appraisal of A&M's heavy hitters? He referred to them as "Aggie Exes" -- "just the sweetest, most obnoxious guys" (BEAR, p. 125).
So Bryant spent one year in Maryland, eight years in Kentucky, four years in Texas -- and 25 years in Alabama -- where he was both head coach and athletic director. Was Alabama such a garden spot that he couldn't resist going back and living out his life there? Or was it that Alabama's heavy hitters were tired of their football team's showing on the football field and were willing to do what it took to change the situation?
UDTiger, I don't know who you are, but then again I do -- you are a knowledgeable football fan who has a good perspective on the history of your LSU football team. You have been around the block. It sounds like you may have even played a little football.
Most of my life has been spent in and around churches. Before you write me off as a sheltered nitwit, let me say this -- there may be just as much politics played in churches as is played in secular politics. (That is not God's fault, I hasten to add.) Point: Human beings play politics, and when it comes to college football, I can't see how it could be any different.
The University of Florida football program comes to mind. Why did Steve Spurrier leave there when it looked as if he might well surpass the record of Bear Bryant? When he tried to return to UF as head coach after a stint in the pros, he was told by the powers that be in Florida that he would have to "apply" just like anyone else. (Whereupon he told them to stuff it.)
Then along came Urban Meyer, who quickly doubled Spurrier's number of national championships. Meyer then contracted some mysterious illness, real or imagined, the ultimate result being that he also packed his bags. Now he's undefeated in two seasons at Ohio State. Whatever you think of Meyer, like Spurrier he is a high-level football coach who can take a loser and turn it into a winner. And he, like Spurrier, left the University of Florida.
Maybe it's just me, but I put "two and two" together (Spurrier plus Meyer), and I have to wonder if the political landscape surrounding the University of Florida football program has anything to do with the fact that somehow it could not, or did not, keep either one of those two top-flight coaches in that talent-laden environment.
As uncomfortable as it may or may not be, please permit me to look at the LSU football program. When LSU had its first national championship coach, he packed up about five years later and went to, of all places, Army. When he came back as AD, LSU unceremoniously fired him. And when LSU had a coach who may be the best since Bear Bryant, he won a national championship -- and left.
I saw the politics of Louisiana from what might be considered a tiny perspective. But I saw it: men of means building their little fiefdoms around the countryside. I saw firsthand how power was wielded by such a man in his "domain." And I surmised that his neighbor about five miles away must have been doing the same thing in HIS domain.
Isn't this what happens surrounding football programs? The decisions surrounding a program are made by "the heavy hitters." These men may be on "The Board" or on the Administration. The question boils down further though -- what are these men like, and how much of their power would they be willing to turn over to the guy who might run the football program to which they contribute money -- or administrate?
Could it be that the "heavy hitters" at one school are different regarding their wielding of power than those at another school? And could it be that a Nick Saban or a Bear Bryant would seek out that place where the heavy hitters are willing to turn over sufficient of their power and to allow, for all practical purposes, full autonomy to their football coach? And wouldn't it follow that if such a person as a Bryant or a Saban thought that he was not at such a place, he would move on?
The New Orleans Saints never got untracked AT ALL until Tom Benson bought the franchise. He forthwith brought in one of the strongest men in Pro Football -- Jim Finks. This, to my mind, showed the strength of Tom Benson. He was willing to turn over his franchise to the stewardship of a man of strength. In other words, because he was not threatened by Finks' strength, Tom Benson was able to turn the Saints into something they had never been.
The story of Bear Bryant at his first three stops -- Maryland, Kentucky, and Texas A&M -- illustrates, I think, what I am talking about. Bryant went 6-2-1 at Maryland in 1945 as a 32 year-old head coach fresh put of World War II. When the university president, Curly Byrd, who himself was an old football coach, reinstituted a player that Bryant had kicked off the team, Bryant immediately checked his job offers and went to the University of Kentucky. After going 60-23-5 in eight years and winning Kentucky's only SEC football championship (1950), Bryant was given a cigarette lighter by the heavy hitters, and basketball coach Adolph Rupp was given a Cadillac. Bryant promptly exited to Texas A&M, went 25-14-2 in four years, and won the Southwest Conference championship in 1956 after going 1-9 in 1954. His appraisal of A&M's heavy hitters? He referred to them as "Aggie Exes" -- "just the sweetest, most obnoxious guys" (BEAR, p. 125).
So Bryant spent one year in Maryland, eight years in Kentucky, four years in Texas -- and 25 years in Alabama -- where he was both head coach and athletic director. Was Alabama such a garden spot that he couldn't resist going back and living out his life there? Or was it that Alabama's heavy hitters were tired of their football team's showing on the football field and were willing to do what it took to change the situation?
re: Cowherd calling out Bama's draft pick flops
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/9/13 at 7:55 am to biglego
I've never thought Mark Ingram was the greatest. I always liked Trent Richardson, since I saw him play in high school. I was wrong about Eddie Lacy.
I don't measure Alabama football players by what they do in the pros. I will say THIS -- Neither Joe Namath, Kenny Stabler, nor Bart Starr is in the College Football Hall of Fame. Stabler is not even in the NFL Hall of Fame. Starr hardly even played main team at Alabama -- he was there during the nadir of Alabama football, before Bear Bryant came in and changed things in 1958.
From the standpoint of what he did as an Alabama football player, Pat Trammell was the greatest quarterback of all time. And no doubt, 95% of the Ranters don't even know who he was. Trammell never made it to the pros, and he died of cancer at age 28 as a young doctor.
Pat Trammell is looked upon as the Captain of Alabama football. Why? because Bear Bryant called him "the favorite person of my life. He couldn't pass and he couldn't run. All he could do was win."
Pat Trammell won Bear's first national championship, at Alabama in 1961. He wore #12. Every Alabama quarterback since then has worn #12 if he could get it. McCarron wears #10 -- Greg McElroy had #12 when McCarron came into the program.
This is why I think that the whole national discussion on the "Game Manager" is hokum. You come to Alabama as a quarterback, you are expected first and foremost to be the Game Manager. You don't make mistakes. You make the others around you better. In fact, if they aren't putting out like they should, you get on their case. Bryant said that "the rest of the players followed Trammell like little puppies."
The 1958 LSU team had a great Game Manager -- Warren Rabb. He probably hasn't received the acclaim he deserves. He won you a national championship by steering the ship through a perfect season and a national championship in both the AP and UP.
This is what I think so many people miss -- football is just as much about using your head as it is about using your athleticism. As Nick Saban says, focus on your job. You want swagger? Well, you better attend to the focus before you concern yourself with the swagger.
What a guy does in the pros after he leaves your team -- what do you care, anyhow? You want him to apply himself to doing the best for you and your team while he is at your place.
I don't care that much for pro football anyway.
I don't measure Alabama football players by what they do in the pros. I will say THIS -- Neither Joe Namath, Kenny Stabler, nor Bart Starr is in the College Football Hall of Fame. Stabler is not even in the NFL Hall of Fame. Starr hardly even played main team at Alabama -- he was there during the nadir of Alabama football, before Bear Bryant came in and changed things in 1958.
From the standpoint of what he did as an Alabama football player, Pat Trammell was the greatest quarterback of all time. And no doubt, 95% of the Ranters don't even know who he was. Trammell never made it to the pros, and he died of cancer at age 28 as a young doctor.
Pat Trammell is looked upon as the Captain of Alabama football. Why? because Bear Bryant called him "the favorite person of my life. He couldn't pass and he couldn't run. All he could do was win."
Pat Trammell won Bear's first national championship, at Alabama in 1961. He wore #12. Every Alabama quarterback since then has worn #12 if he could get it. McCarron wears #10 -- Greg McElroy had #12 when McCarron came into the program.
This is why I think that the whole national discussion on the "Game Manager" is hokum. You come to Alabama as a quarterback, you are expected first and foremost to be the Game Manager. You don't make mistakes. You make the others around you better. In fact, if they aren't putting out like they should, you get on their case. Bryant said that "the rest of the players followed Trammell like little puppies."
The 1958 LSU team had a great Game Manager -- Warren Rabb. He probably hasn't received the acclaim he deserves. He won you a national championship by steering the ship through a perfect season and a national championship in both the AP and UP.
This is what I think so many people miss -- football is just as much about using your head as it is about using your athleticism. As Nick Saban says, focus on your job. You want swagger? Well, you better attend to the focus before you concern yourself with the swagger.
What a guy does in the pros after he leaves your team -- what do you care, anyhow? You want him to apply himself to doing the best for you and your team while he is at your place.
I don't care that much for pro football anyway.
re: Wow you have to read this about the gumps fan base.
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/6/13 at 5:55 am to LSUcrawfish
I have just read this link, and in all honesty I cannot disagree with it "point blank."
The writer wants to say that 15% of the Alabama fan base is considered "elitist" by the other 85%. I can't say that I agree that those figures are correct, for the simple reason that I don't see how any such a "survey" could be scientifically accurate. In other words, I don't see that some professional sociologist is going to write such an article.
The writer apparently has lived in Alabama, just as I lived in Louisiana for 28 years -- I've also lived in Alabama, Mississippi, and north Florida. I say "north Florida" because that section of Florida retains its Southern character, whereas the rest of the state has become "Yankee-ized" (for lack of a better term) as the population has greatly increased since World War II.
Of course, Atlanta has changed the state of Georgia to a great extent, and even the rest of the South to a lesser extent, but Georgia nevertheless retains a lot of
its Southern character.
As I say, I think that the writer in the link is onto something. But I think that all reasonable persons on this thread will agree that it is dangerous to wade off into generalizations when it comes to a subject like this. All I can do is to say my piece.
I think that Paul Finebaum has tapped into the very situation this link author is talking about. No, I don't like Finebaum. I don't like the fact that as a Jew he has come into Alabama as a "missionary" trying to spread a Gospel of Good Will. The effect of what he's doing, it seems to me personally, is to point out that Protestantism has failed in Alabama. I am educated and experienced enough to have known some very fine Jewish people. But I resent the fact that MY religious persuasion has done such a poor job in my home state that it has resulted in someone of another persuasion coming in and doing what "we" should have done -- deal with this state's brand of backwardness and the violent tendencies of a portion of its people.
The historians have struggled to explain the violent nature of some Alabamians. I think that it has to do with what some psychologists have come to see as a matter of family make-up. It is too evident to deny, in my opinion, that in Alabama you are going to see, more than in, say, Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, South Carolina -- or north Florida -- the pickup truck with the rebel flag on the bumper and the rifle or shotgun in the back window of the cab.
To me, that picture I just described is the basis of violence in the South, historically, to this day. It is a family thing, in my opinion. This extends into families of higher stations of life within this state, and probably elsewhere. A family may no longer own a pickup truck but nevertheless retain a violent strain in its nature. (Don't get me wrong -- a pickup truck is certainly in no way at all evil in and of itself, and many many, MANY fine, peaceful people drive pickup trucks.)
In fact, I think that way too much has been said in the way of hyperbole and exaggeration as to what I'm trying to describe here. Yes, I have lived in a Southern community where just about everybody is related to one another. But in other Southern towns I have known, that is simply not the case -- at all.
Another thing -- this type of violent family that I am speaking of tends towards sprawling to the four winds, in that their kinfolk can't stand one another. Such a family wants to dominate a neighborhood or community. Therefore, each part of the family seeks out a separate neighborhood as its "turf."
Now, obviously we are into generalizations when we get to discussing this subject. But I repeat, the best explanation I have found regarding THIS subject is the psychological one I have just gone to -- as it involves Family Systems.
I'm not going to get into Louisiana here and what I consider to be the dominant family system in THAT state. Suffice to say that it is not the Family System that I have just described as living in and influencing the state of Alabama.
It occurred to me about thirty years ago that the difference between Alabama and Louisiana explains the difference between college football in Louisiana and college football in Alabama. This amounted to, I guess, a theory on my part that the violent nature of football was attracted to the state where violence is part, as it were, of its "DNA."
In other words, I think that there is an element surrounding the sport of football that involves more than "Saturday Down South," when the bands are playing and the pom-poms are waving.
I also think this -- that the coarser our society has become over the past thirty or thirty-five years, the more popular the sport of football has become, so that the "milder" states such as Louisiana have become more involved in that sport, more into taking it seriously.
The writer wants to say that 15% of the Alabama fan base is considered "elitist" by the other 85%. I can't say that I agree that those figures are correct, for the simple reason that I don't see how any such a "survey" could be scientifically accurate. In other words, I don't see that some professional sociologist is going to write such an article.
The writer apparently has lived in Alabama, just as I lived in Louisiana for 28 years -- I've also lived in Alabama, Mississippi, and north Florida. I say "north Florida" because that section of Florida retains its Southern character, whereas the rest of the state has become "Yankee-ized" (for lack of a better term) as the population has greatly increased since World War II.
Of course, Atlanta has changed the state of Georgia to a great extent, and even the rest of the South to a lesser extent, but Georgia nevertheless retains a lot of
its Southern character.
As I say, I think that the writer in the link is onto something. But I think that all reasonable persons on this thread will agree that it is dangerous to wade off into generalizations when it comes to a subject like this. All I can do is to say my piece.
I think that Paul Finebaum has tapped into the very situation this link author is talking about. No, I don't like Finebaum. I don't like the fact that as a Jew he has come into Alabama as a "missionary" trying to spread a Gospel of Good Will. The effect of what he's doing, it seems to me personally, is to point out that Protestantism has failed in Alabama. I am educated and experienced enough to have known some very fine Jewish people. But I resent the fact that MY religious persuasion has done such a poor job in my home state that it has resulted in someone of another persuasion coming in and doing what "we" should have done -- deal with this state's brand of backwardness and the violent tendencies of a portion of its people.
The historians have struggled to explain the violent nature of some Alabamians. I think that it has to do with what some psychologists have come to see as a matter of family make-up. It is too evident to deny, in my opinion, that in Alabama you are going to see, more than in, say, Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, South Carolina -- or north Florida -- the pickup truck with the rebel flag on the bumper and the rifle or shotgun in the back window of the cab.
To me, that picture I just described is the basis of violence in the South, historically, to this day. It is a family thing, in my opinion. This extends into families of higher stations of life within this state, and probably elsewhere. A family may no longer own a pickup truck but nevertheless retain a violent strain in its nature. (Don't get me wrong -- a pickup truck is certainly in no way at all evil in and of itself, and many many, MANY fine, peaceful people drive pickup trucks.)
In fact, I think that way too much has been said in the way of hyperbole and exaggeration as to what I'm trying to describe here. Yes, I have lived in a Southern community where just about everybody is related to one another. But in other Southern towns I have known, that is simply not the case -- at all.
Another thing -- this type of violent family that I am speaking of tends towards sprawling to the four winds, in that their kinfolk can't stand one another. Such a family wants to dominate a neighborhood or community. Therefore, each part of the family seeks out a separate neighborhood as its "turf."
Now, obviously we are into generalizations when we get to discussing this subject. But I repeat, the best explanation I have found regarding THIS subject is the psychological one I have just gone to -- as it involves Family Systems.
I'm not going to get into Louisiana here and what I consider to be the dominant family system in THAT state. Suffice to say that it is not the Family System that I have just described as living in and influencing the state of Alabama.
It occurred to me about thirty years ago that the difference between Alabama and Louisiana explains the difference between college football in Louisiana and college football in Alabama. This amounted to, I guess, a theory on my part that the violent nature of football was attracted to the state where violence is part, as it were, of its "DNA."
In other words, I think that there is an element surrounding the sport of football that involves more than "Saturday Down South," when the bands are playing and the pom-poms are waving.
I also think this -- that the coarser our society has become over the past thirty or thirty-five years, the more popular the sport of football has become, so that the "milder" states such as Louisiana have become more involved in that sport, more into taking it seriously.
re: ESPN live segment creeps into LSU film room -- Can you say, AWKWARD?
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/5/13 at 2:27 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
I hate to think how long it has been since women reporters were first allowed into football locker rooms.
Given that, how can we be surprised if one of them walks in on a defensive coaches' planning meeting?
Make up your own joke -- where do they pop up next?
MAD magazine used to have a segment called "Scenes We'd Like to See." Political correctness being what it is today, she can come into my locker room or conference room, but I better not let my imagination run wild here as to "scenes I'd like to see" when she did come in there.
Given that, how can we be surprised if one of them walks in on a defensive coaches' planning meeting?
Make up your own joke -- where do they pop up next?
MAD magazine used to have a segment called "Scenes We'd Like to See." Political correctness being what it is today, she can come into my locker room or conference room, but I better not let my imagination run wild here as to "scenes I'd like to see" when she did come in there.
re: Another "when we beat Bama..."
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 11/4/13 at 2:21 am to GCTiger11
I think I may have looked into the history of the national championships in college football probably more than 95% of the college football fan base has.
There are quite a few problems in trying to sort this thing out, and probably the biggest problem is that no professional historian to my knowledge has written a book on the subject. You can find a good, well-documented article on the Internet about it. But the problem with that is that it leaves you hanging, since its brevity does not provide the overall context nor the immediate contexts of each national championship claimed or 'officially' posted. I wish that somebody like Tony Barnhart would tackle this and write the definitive book on the subject.
Another obvious problem is that before the AP started cranking out its national championship winners in 1936, there were a number of other "unofficial" entities awarding national championships. It was a situation that could be roughly compared to you or me setting up a blog and awarding a national championship to our team of preference.
Maybe such an entity would have sufficient respect of the public to be doing something like this, and maybe it did not. It seems obvious that no one has studied this situation enough to determine which of these entities should be considered an 'authority' and which should not be.
Certain entities such as a Grantland Rice would obviously have sufficient gravitas, but others, particularly now that we are more than three-quarters of a century removed from the situation, cannot, on the face of it, be declared to have such obvious believability. On the other hand, a historical entity that would seem invalid to us today on the face of it, might have been based on more solid ground than we realize today. "Bottom line": No professional historian of Sport has done a sufficient study of the situation that I know of.
I'm now going to make an estimation of the overall matter based upon a particular example. So take it for what it's worth -- it's the best I can do without doing the massive study necessary to settle the matter.
Bear Bryant won six national championships at Alabama under the system of two main national championships being awarded anually, one by the AP (writers' poll) and the other by the UP (coaches' poll). Sometime during Bryant's career at Alabama (1958-82), one of these two polls decided to start awarding their national championship after the bowls on New Years day. That was before so many bowls sprang up.
Of Bryant's six national championships, only two, the one in 1961 and the other in 1979, included both the AP and UP awards. The other four -- 1964, 1965, 1973, and 1978 -- each was awarded by only one of the two wire services (AP or UP).
In a disputed call Tommy Nobis, the Texas linebacker, stopped Joe Namath on the goal line in the 1965 Orange Bowl, depriving Alabama of both "halves" of the 1964 national championship.
The 1965 national championship was awarded after Alabama beat Nebraska 39-28 in the Orange Bowl. I believe Nebraska went into that game undefeated and already had been voted national champions by one of the two wire services. Alabama had a 16-15 loss to Georgia at the beginning of the year and a 7-7 tie with Tennessee. Bear Bryant specifically told his players going into that game that it was their job to win this game, that (I believe it was) two other teams would have to lose on New Years, and that once those dominoes had all fallen, Alabama would be national champs. It all happened just the way he predicted.
Alabama had a chance at the 1977 national championship, drubbing Woody Hayes' Ohio State team in the 1978 Sugar Bowl. But Notre Dame, with Joe Montana, leap frogged over Alabama from fifth in the polls to the post-bowl game national championship by beating Texas in the Cotton Bowl.
I believe it was Charles White who (as the TV camera clearly showed, but there was no review back then) fumbled the ball on the goal line in the 1979 Rose Bowl, but the referees saw it differently, the result being a USC national championship, in effect robbing Alabama of both "halves" (AP and UP) of the 1978 national championship.
Can you understand how I wince every time I hear an LSU fan use the following terms/phrases/statements? "They backed into the championship." "They only won half a championship." Even: "They were given a Mulligan."
If a competent study were done of all the national championships ever awarded down through the years , before or after 1936, my hunch is that you would find that a great many of them have been "backed into," or were "half-championships" (if not "one-third or one-fourth championships"), and no telling how many times a "Mulligan" was involved.
In fact, the 1958 LSU national championship, which was (I believe) awarded by both the AP and UP, was not necessarily the norm; it may have been the exception.
In other words, some of you LSU people who are into "low-rating" (old Alabama term) your national championships, when, say, only one wire service awarded it to you, or when you won it by "backing into it" with two losses -- are probably selling yourself short, if the historical truth were told as it needs to be.
No,I can't say this with absolute certainty. But given the limited knowledge we have of the subject, it is probably a myth that the national championships down through history were for the most part grand and glorious affairs in which one team so swept through the opposition that there was no question in anybody's mind as to who won the national championship that year.
That this is a myth is obviously probable because no doubt on several occasions more than one team around the country had such a grand and glorious season. Therein lies the problem. Who was right about who won the national championship in such a year? Subjectivity entered into the matter, just as it remains with us today.
Auburn and Alabama, for what it's worth, have both been on the short end of this situation. I forget just what year Auburn went something like 15-0 and didn't even get into the national championship game.
In 1966 Alabama with QB Kenny Stabler went 11-0-0, but Notre Dame and Michigan State each had a tie, the result of playing each other in the regular season, when Ara Parseghian chose to go for the tie rather than two points. Both Notre Dame and Michigan State wound up ahead of Alabama in the final polls. If Alabama had been awarded that national championship, it would have been the only time in the modern era (1936 ff.)that a team has won three national championships in a row (1964, 1965, and 1966).
Tom Lugenbill of ESPN said the other day that the BCS formula is less subjective than the new system that is going to involve the decision of a committee as to who gets into the championship game.
There are quite a few problems in trying to sort this thing out, and probably the biggest problem is that no professional historian to my knowledge has written a book on the subject. You can find a good, well-documented article on the Internet about it. But the problem with that is that it leaves you hanging, since its brevity does not provide the overall context nor the immediate contexts of each national championship claimed or 'officially' posted. I wish that somebody like Tony Barnhart would tackle this and write the definitive book on the subject.
Another obvious problem is that before the AP started cranking out its national championship winners in 1936, there were a number of other "unofficial" entities awarding national championships. It was a situation that could be roughly compared to you or me setting up a blog and awarding a national championship to our team of preference.
Maybe such an entity would have sufficient respect of the public to be doing something like this, and maybe it did not. It seems obvious that no one has studied this situation enough to determine which of these entities should be considered an 'authority' and which should not be.
Certain entities such as a Grantland Rice would obviously have sufficient gravitas, but others, particularly now that we are more than three-quarters of a century removed from the situation, cannot, on the face of it, be declared to have such obvious believability. On the other hand, a historical entity that would seem invalid to us today on the face of it, might have been based on more solid ground than we realize today. "Bottom line": No professional historian of Sport has done a sufficient study of the situation that I know of.
I'm now going to make an estimation of the overall matter based upon a particular example. So take it for what it's worth -- it's the best I can do without doing the massive study necessary to settle the matter.
Bear Bryant won six national championships at Alabama under the system of two main national championships being awarded anually, one by the AP (writers' poll) and the other by the UP (coaches' poll). Sometime during Bryant's career at Alabama (1958-82), one of these two polls decided to start awarding their national championship after the bowls on New Years day. That was before so many bowls sprang up.
Of Bryant's six national championships, only two, the one in 1961 and the other in 1979, included both the AP and UP awards. The other four -- 1964, 1965, 1973, and 1978 -- each was awarded by only one of the two wire services (AP or UP).
In a disputed call Tommy Nobis, the Texas linebacker, stopped Joe Namath on the goal line in the 1965 Orange Bowl, depriving Alabama of both "halves" of the 1964 national championship.
The 1965 national championship was awarded after Alabama beat Nebraska 39-28 in the Orange Bowl. I believe Nebraska went into that game undefeated and already had been voted national champions by one of the two wire services. Alabama had a 16-15 loss to Georgia at the beginning of the year and a 7-7 tie with Tennessee. Bear Bryant specifically told his players going into that game that it was their job to win this game, that (I believe it was) two other teams would have to lose on New Years, and that once those dominoes had all fallen, Alabama would be national champs. It all happened just the way he predicted.
Alabama had a chance at the 1977 national championship, drubbing Woody Hayes' Ohio State team in the 1978 Sugar Bowl. But Notre Dame, with Joe Montana, leap frogged over Alabama from fifth in the polls to the post-bowl game national championship by beating Texas in the Cotton Bowl.
I believe it was Charles White who (as the TV camera clearly showed, but there was no review back then) fumbled the ball on the goal line in the 1979 Rose Bowl, but the referees saw it differently, the result being a USC national championship, in effect robbing Alabama of both "halves" (AP and UP) of the 1978 national championship.
Can you understand how I wince every time I hear an LSU fan use the following terms/phrases/statements? "They backed into the championship." "They only won half a championship." Even: "They were given a Mulligan."
If a competent study were done of all the national championships ever awarded down through the years , before or after 1936, my hunch is that you would find that a great many of them have been "backed into," or were "half-championships" (if not "one-third or one-fourth championships"), and no telling how many times a "Mulligan" was involved.
In fact, the 1958 LSU national championship, which was (I believe) awarded by both the AP and UP, was not necessarily the norm; it may have been the exception.
In other words, some of you LSU people who are into "low-rating" (old Alabama term) your national championships, when, say, only one wire service awarded it to you, or when you won it by "backing into it" with two losses -- are probably selling yourself short, if the historical truth were told as it needs to be.
No,I can't say this with absolute certainty. But given the limited knowledge we have of the subject, it is probably a myth that the national championships down through history were for the most part grand and glorious affairs in which one team so swept through the opposition that there was no question in anybody's mind as to who won the national championship that year.
That this is a myth is obviously probable because no doubt on several occasions more than one team around the country had such a grand and glorious season. Therein lies the problem. Who was right about who won the national championship in such a year? Subjectivity entered into the matter, just as it remains with us today.
Auburn and Alabama, for what it's worth, have both been on the short end of this situation. I forget just what year Auburn went something like 15-0 and didn't even get into the national championship game.
In 1966 Alabama with QB Kenny Stabler went 11-0-0, but Notre Dame and Michigan State each had a tie, the result of playing each other in the regular season, when Ara Parseghian chose to go for the tie rather than two points. Both Notre Dame and Michigan State wound up ahead of Alabama in the final polls. If Alabama had been awarded that national championship, it would have been the only time in the modern era (1936 ff.)that a team has won three national championships in a row (1964, 1965, and 1966).
Tom Lugenbill of ESPN said the other day that the BCS formula is less subjective than the new system that is going to involve the decision of a committee as to who gets into the championship game.
re: How many LSU fans actually hate Nick Saban?
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 10/31/13 at 10:11 am to JawjaTigah
The two posters who speak of Saban's being in "a Redneck Hell" (the State of Alabama), in my opinion, are closest to what the whole relationship of Saban to LSU is all about.
I'm 70 years old. I spent 28 of those years in the State of Louisiana. The majority of that was in and around New Orleans, but some of it was spent in Prairieville, and during that period I spent a lot of time in Baton Rouge. I was among other things a National Guard chaplain, which had me travelling among several southeast Louisiana cities, from Bogalusa to Thibodeaux to New Orleans.
I have lived in Gulf Shores, Alabama, for the past twenty years. We came over here from New Orleans mainly so my wife could take care of her mother.
I knew when I was in New Orleans that my Southern drawl turned some people off. My wife somehow handled that better than I, even though she's from Birmingham. Our son was born and raised in New Orleans, and our daughter was born in Baton Rouge and grew up in New Orleans.
As I say, I think that two of the Ranters have hit the nail on the head when they refer to Saban and the "miserable redneck Hell" of Alabama. Have you ever read the old Uncle Remus story about Br'er Rabbit and the briar patch? Br'er rabbit begged Br'er Fox and Br'er Rabbit not to throw him into the briar patch -- which is of course where they then threw him.
I think that some people find their briar patch sooner, and some find it later. To some people the "Redneck Hell" of Alabama is their briar patch. Bear Bryant referred to coming back to Alabama in 1958 by saying that "Mama called." When he answered that call, he found that his wife, who was from an upper class Birmingham family, was "in Hog's Heaven."
As one of the Ranters has noted, West Virginia, where Nick Saban is from, is not that different, culturally, from Alabama, just as Arkansas, where Bryant was from, is not that different from Alabama.
I went through grades 3-6 in New Orleans during the fifties. When we went back to New Orleans in 1968, part of it involved the allure of New Orleans. As they say, there is probably no other place quite like it in the U.S. It is like a beautiful woman. I love some of the people there more than some of the redneck people I love over here. But I know I'm basically a Redneck, and though I don't necessarily love South Alabama as much as I thought I would, I know I am a better fit here than I was in New Orleans -- or Prairieville, for that matter.
Billy Cannon has been my hero, since I met him in 1959 at the Baton Rouge drugstore where his trophies were. I have thought for many decades that his statue -- of THE RUN -- should be outside Tiger Stadium. But I am also a dyed-in-the-wool Bama fan, ever since I saw his Sunday evening show during the 1959 football season when I was a HS senior in north Florida.
Hate is a strong word. As I say, I found people in Louisiana who I consider the Salt of the Earth and my good friends. I actually painted a portrait of a young man who was expected to play halfback for LSU when he was killed in a car accident on his prom night. The parents would probably tell you to this day that the picture helped them through their worst times.
LSU is a great football program. That Nick Saban left it is no indication that he didn't realize this. If we lived in a perfect world, and we don't, I would like to consider LSU as a worthy opponent. There is a difference between an opponent and an enemy.
When my parents moved us to northwest Florida in 1959, my football coach evidently didn't know I could run the ball and neither did my quarterback. I spent the second game of the season mostly blocking favored Chipley, Florida's right defensive end from my left halfback slot. We tied 6-6. When the whistle blew to end the game, he suddenly stepped towards me, extended his right hand, and said, "We didn't know you all had this much." That, my friend, is what I mean by an opponent. I shook his hand and was proud to do it. That's the way I'd like to think of the LSU-Alabama rivalry.
I'm 70 years old. I spent 28 of those years in the State of Louisiana. The majority of that was in and around New Orleans, but some of it was spent in Prairieville, and during that period I spent a lot of time in Baton Rouge. I was among other things a National Guard chaplain, which had me travelling among several southeast Louisiana cities, from Bogalusa to Thibodeaux to New Orleans.
I have lived in Gulf Shores, Alabama, for the past twenty years. We came over here from New Orleans mainly so my wife could take care of her mother.
I knew when I was in New Orleans that my Southern drawl turned some people off. My wife somehow handled that better than I, even though she's from Birmingham. Our son was born and raised in New Orleans, and our daughter was born in Baton Rouge and grew up in New Orleans.
As I say, I think that two of the Ranters have hit the nail on the head when they refer to Saban and the "miserable redneck Hell" of Alabama. Have you ever read the old Uncle Remus story about Br'er Rabbit and the briar patch? Br'er rabbit begged Br'er Fox and Br'er Rabbit not to throw him into the briar patch -- which is of course where they then threw him.
I think that some people find their briar patch sooner, and some find it later. To some people the "Redneck Hell" of Alabama is their briar patch. Bear Bryant referred to coming back to Alabama in 1958 by saying that "Mama called." When he answered that call, he found that his wife, who was from an upper class Birmingham family, was "in Hog's Heaven."
As one of the Ranters has noted, West Virginia, where Nick Saban is from, is not that different, culturally, from Alabama, just as Arkansas, where Bryant was from, is not that different from Alabama.
I went through grades 3-6 in New Orleans during the fifties. When we went back to New Orleans in 1968, part of it involved the allure of New Orleans. As they say, there is probably no other place quite like it in the U.S. It is like a beautiful woman. I love some of the people there more than some of the redneck people I love over here. But I know I'm basically a Redneck, and though I don't necessarily love South Alabama as much as I thought I would, I know I am a better fit here than I was in New Orleans -- or Prairieville, for that matter.
Billy Cannon has been my hero, since I met him in 1959 at the Baton Rouge drugstore where his trophies were. I have thought for many decades that his statue -- of THE RUN -- should be outside Tiger Stadium. But I am also a dyed-in-the-wool Bama fan, ever since I saw his Sunday evening show during the 1959 football season when I was a HS senior in north Florida.
Hate is a strong word. As I say, I found people in Louisiana who I consider the Salt of the Earth and my good friends. I actually painted a portrait of a young man who was expected to play halfback for LSU when he was killed in a car accident on his prom night. The parents would probably tell you to this day that the picture helped them through their worst times.
LSU is a great football program. That Nick Saban left it is no indication that he didn't realize this. If we lived in a perfect world, and we don't, I would like to consider LSU as a worthy opponent. There is a difference between an opponent and an enemy.
When my parents moved us to northwest Florida in 1959, my football coach evidently didn't know I could run the ball and neither did my quarterback. I spent the second game of the season mostly blocking favored Chipley, Florida's right defensive end from my left halfback slot. We tied 6-6. When the whistle blew to end the game, he suddenly stepped towards me, extended his right hand, and said, "We didn't know you all had this much." That, my friend, is what I mean by an opponent. I shook his hand and was proud to do it. That's the way I'd like to think of the LSU-Alabama rivalry.
re: Whose offense will we see this year?
Posted by SouthernRabbit on 3/4/12 at 3:46 pm to rickyh
I say this as an Alabama fan who spent 28 years of my life in Louisiana. I have personally met Billy Cannon. I have a great respect for the LSU tradition. I consider this thread to be the one, out of a great many I have read since 1/9, that gets at the heart of the matter better than any other I have read.
The question that I have always had about LSU football and its tradition is that the emphasis has always been upon the physical superiority of LSU football vis a vis other competing programs, whether that be Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss, whoever.
The physical superiority of football talent has never been what it's all about regarding University of Alabama football, despite what I have heard a very knowledgable ex-Alabama and ex-Auburn football player say on the radio. They were both too young to remember when Bear Bryant won a national championship in 1961 with a 205 pound quarterback who was just about the biggest player on that football team.
With Bryant it was about recruiting great athletes, but not to the point that this was his sole emphasis. Yes, he wanted to wear down the opposition with superior physicality, so as to win the fourth quarter and therefore win the game. But that very physicality might come from superior effort by inferior talent.
It was the mental aspect of Bryant's coaching that I think has probably been largely overlooked by the "esperts." They have tended to look at him as a big, dumb ex-lineman, who couldn't have been that smart, especially when you consider his folksy, Southern drawl. I think he may have even encouraged this underestimation of his intelligence.
Les Miles has a very definite upside as a college football head coach. He recruits well. The players like his positive, outgoing, even boistrous attitude. He is one of those coaches who, as Ken Stabler says about John Madden, "We had a lot of fun playing for him." That seems to be why players will do extraordinary things for him, in my opinion, such as Eric Reed's interception against Bama in the November 5 game. Les commands a certain loyalty that few coaches can. I might even go so far as to say that this makes Les Miles a great coach.
As I said, the question I have always had about LSU football is whether pure, overwhelming physicality makes for what is popularly called today "an elite football program." If a coach in his recruiting sweeps the state of Louisiana by closing the borders, while adding a few elite players from Texas, Florida, etc., has he, by virtue of the fact that per capita, Louisiana has the best talent in the country, insured that he will win a national championship? That idea still seems to be out there -- in force.
If you were to pick up a copy of Gene Stalling's book on Bear Bryant football, you would see that the opening statement in the book is that Bryant believed that you can have a "tank" of a football team, but you have to have someone who can competently, effectively drive the "tank." Stallings was of course referring to the team quarterback. Bear Bryant happened to be uncomfortable with two of the best players ever to play the position -- Joe Namath and Kenny Stabler. He suspended both of them, in fact. Why? Because he insisted upon control of the person playing the position. Namath and Stabler were both free spirits. Bryant made a practice of walking the campus with his quarterbacks the day or so before a game. Why? Because he considered the quarterback his "coach on the field."
Paul Dietzel, not far removed from Bear Bryant's staff at Kentucky, won a national championship at LSU in 1958. Dietzel had been a pre-med student before deciding to become a football coach. He had as his quarterback a level-headed Warren Rabb from Baton Rouge. At left halfback he had Billy Cannon, also of Baton Rouge, who turned out to be a dentist. Yes, LSU had the material in Louisiana wrapped up at that time, but it wasn't all just about superior physicality and numbers. Ole Miss, by the way, also had superior physicality and numbers at that time. Those were two great football programs in the late fifties -- early sixties. Ole Miss also had a great QB -- Jake Gibbs, who would later become catcher for the New York Yankees.
The question remains for LSU fans. You have a terrific head coach in Les Miles. Miles' strong point is that he can do what LSU fans seem historically to have wanted -- he can recruit and he can win with superior material and numbers. The problem would seem to be what Bear Bryant talked about when he said, "It is the itty-bitty things that can beat you." When a championship game is on the line, then is what Bryant (followed by Jackie Sherrill) called 'the nut-cuttin.' It comes down to'gut-check' time (another Bryant-ism), but it also comes down to what happens mentally on the sideline between the head coach and his quarterback. The question, it seems to me, remains, can LSU be an elite program with what seems to me to be an continued primary emphasis upon physicality and numbers.
The question that I have always had about LSU football and its tradition is that the emphasis has always been upon the physical superiority of LSU football vis a vis other competing programs, whether that be Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss, whoever.
The physical superiority of football talent has never been what it's all about regarding University of Alabama football, despite what I have heard a very knowledgable ex-Alabama and ex-Auburn football player say on the radio. They were both too young to remember when Bear Bryant won a national championship in 1961 with a 205 pound quarterback who was just about the biggest player on that football team.
With Bryant it was about recruiting great athletes, but not to the point that this was his sole emphasis. Yes, he wanted to wear down the opposition with superior physicality, so as to win the fourth quarter and therefore win the game. But that very physicality might come from superior effort by inferior talent.
It was the mental aspect of Bryant's coaching that I think has probably been largely overlooked by the "esperts." They have tended to look at him as a big, dumb ex-lineman, who couldn't have been that smart, especially when you consider his folksy, Southern drawl. I think he may have even encouraged this underestimation of his intelligence.
Les Miles has a very definite upside as a college football head coach. He recruits well. The players like his positive, outgoing, even boistrous attitude. He is one of those coaches who, as Ken Stabler says about John Madden, "We had a lot of fun playing for him." That seems to be why players will do extraordinary things for him, in my opinion, such as Eric Reed's interception against Bama in the November 5 game. Les commands a certain loyalty that few coaches can. I might even go so far as to say that this makes Les Miles a great coach.
As I said, the question I have always had about LSU football is whether pure, overwhelming physicality makes for what is popularly called today "an elite football program." If a coach in his recruiting sweeps the state of Louisiana by closing the borders, while adding a few elite players from Texas, Florida, etc., has he, by virtue of the fact that per capita, Louisiana has the best talent in the country, insured that he will win a national championship? That idea still seems to be out there -- in force.
If you were to pick up a copy of Gene Stalling's book on Bear Bryant football, you would see that the opening statement in the book is that Bryant believed that you can have a "tank" of a football team, but you have to have someone who can competently, effectively drive the "tank." Stallings was of course referring to the team quarterback. Bear Bryant happened to be uncomfortable with two of the best players ever to play the position -- Joe Namath and Kenny Stabler. He suspended both of them, in fact. Why? Because he insisted upon control of the person playing the position. Namath and Stabler were both free spirits. Bryant made a practice of walking the campus with his quarterbacks the day or so before a game. Why? Because he considered the quarterback his "coach on the field."
Paul Dietzel, not far removed from Bear Bryant's staff at Kentucky, won a national championship at LSU in 1958. Dietzel had been a pre-med student before deciding to become a football coach. He had as his quarterback a level-headed Warren Rabb from Baton Rouge. At left halfback he had Billy Cannon, also of Baton Rouge, who turned out to be a dentist. Yes, LSU had the material in Louisiana wrapped up at that time, but it wasn't all just about superior physicality and numbers. Ole Miss, by the way, also had superior physicality and numbers at that time. Those were two great football programs in the late fifties -- early sixties. Ole Miss also had a great QB -- Jake Gibbs, who would later become catcher for the New York Yankees.
The question remains for LSU fans. You have a terrific head coach in Les Miles. Miles' strong point is that he can do what LSU fans seem historically to have wanted -- he can recruit and he can win with superior material and numbers. The problem would seem to be what Bear Bryant talked about when he said, "It is the itty-bitty things that can beat you." When a championship game is on the line, then is what Bryant (followed by Jackie Sherrill) called 'the nut-cuttin.' It comes down to'gut-check' time (another Bryant-ism), but it also comes down to what happens mentally on the sideline between the head coach and his quarterback. The question, it seems to me, remains, can LSU be an elite program with what seems to me to be an continued primary emphasis upon physicality and numbers.
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