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Examples of horrible soccer journalism

Posted on 10/30/16 at 5:24 pm
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 5:24 pm
LINK

From 538. Pretty reductionist and revisionist.
Posted by hendersonshands
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
160203 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 5:39 pm to
I don't feel like reading all of that but I do have a question for you. I was having a debate with someone. Let's say you have a mediocre at best high school team. You have a couple of talented passers but most players are pretty raw. What you do have is some decent size and athleticism and a general idea of what they're supposed to be doing.

Option A:

A very basic formation with a sweeper and ask all your guys to man mark, no thinking just trying to match up man to man. Spend practice time teaching them to switch the field and keep possession.

Option B:

Run a standard flat back 4. Spend practice time teaching spacing, how to press, and how to counter attack.




I argue that you go with Option B for several reasons that I'll list if you disagree.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 5:59 pm to
Option B with the possibility of two midfielders no more than ten yards from the CB's during defensive phases.

My idea for this would be to tie some sort of elastic ropes to the players so that when a player moves up to challenge a ball carrier, the midfield and defensive line respond in kind, either by shifting ballside as a unit, with a midfielder shutting down a passing lane to the ball carrier, or with a midfielder covering the space and another midfielder covering midfield runners.

Option A sounds like suicide as well as a way of destroying a team's hamstrings.

I can't see the argument for option A regardless.

Posted by hendersonshands
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
160203 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:02 pm to
Agreed 100%. Just wanted someone to tell me I'm not crazy. Sorry for hijacking. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:02 pm to
In case I wasn't clear, what I mean is that if a left winger receives the ball on that flank, the right back has to step up to challenge him. Given that this team is athletic, the right sided central midfielder would either cut the passing options for the winger while the defensive line would shift towards the RB, keeping proper spacing throughout, or the right sided central midfielder could slot into a sort of shaded RB position, effectively blocking that channel as well as supporting the RB. Or you could have the CB move out to the RB position with the CM dropping into the CB, but I think this second approach would require lots more drilling.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:03 pm to
What was this person's argument for option A? I honestly can't believe anyone would suggest that, unless they've never played.
Posted by hendersonshands
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
160203 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:10 pm to
This guy played and has been involved with soccer for 20 years

It kind of blows my mind. He thinks teaching the team to keep the ball and switch the point of the attack gives a bigger tactical advantage than spending the effort teaching zonal marking.

I think that if they're 14-18 years old and are still technically raw, you aren't going to turn them in to Thiago Alcantara. Teach them a defined role on defense and let them get out and run when they win the ball back.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:16 pm to
Mother of god. How does he suppose a team can keep the ball if their are almost assuredly going to be out of position during a transition phase? That's almost negligent. He's going to destroy those kids' legs.

Giving players a simple framework has benefits at basically every level. I mean, option B is just basic defensive work. There is nothing revolutionary suggested there. Option A is literally something Bielsa tried and destroyed Bilbao in the process. And even he had a basic framework.
Posted by hendersonshands
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
160203 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:18 pm to
Right, it doesn't make sense for a team to have no real structure defensively but then expect them to know where to find an outlet pass when you win the ball, for example.
Posted by John Keating
College Green, Ireland
Member since Jan 2015
2593 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:21 pm to
quote:

Charles Reep, the father of soccer analytics — and a guy who made one big, glaring mistake that changed the course of English soccer for the worse.

This statement has the feel of a scapegoat to it.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:28 pm to
Speaking of, do you think Julian Weigl is the biggest talent in Germany? I've watched him play since he broke through with Dortmund, and I can't help but think that he has as high a ceiling as Busquets or Martinez. I'd argue that he is as good as William Carvalho too, who I thought was one of the players of Euro 16. His spacing, movement, and passing are that of someone a decade older. I mean Schweini didn't move inside until his mid-20's and had the benefit of playing wide early in his career to help him negotiate tight spaces. Weigl seems to avoid complications by using movement, and sometimes I can't get over how intelligent he is when moving. He's easily a 40 mil player in this market if someone targets him. If he were on Man U, he'd easily make them one of the better teams in the league. For me he's already one of the top five players in that hybrid DLP/DM role (I call it the anchor role). He's certainly as precocious as Busquets was when he broke though.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:33 pm to
Not only that, it is not as if the English used the long ball by itself. I mean the English really didn't use the long ball from 76 to 83 when they won 7 out of 8 EC's. The English team hasn't really used the long ball at all, even under Taylor, when they had a shite ton of injuries and retirements. They didn't use it in 90, or 96, 98, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010 or even under Hodgson. They were just a terrible counter attacking team under Woy.

Not only that, long ball as a tactic works. It is why Pulis and Allardyce have never been relegated to my knowledge. Atletico Madrid use long ball, or did during the 2014 CL, better than any English team ever has. The English game for me is one with an emphasis on wide play supported by athletic and technical play from midfield. Crossing the ball in isn't long ball. Even Leicester City didn't use long ball. They just realized English teams are shite at possession, so they skipped that phase altogether and focused on creating mistakes and breaking at speed.

I really despise a lot of these soccer analyists who use stats as a crunch. There is a long and deep history of why the possession game fell out of favor (as evidenced by the career of Pep) and then came back into favor. I wish they would use context rather than shite headlines and revisionist history.
Posted by hendersonshands
Univ. of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Member since Oct 2007
160203 posts
Posted on 10/30/16 at 6:38 pm to
Weigl is incredible. I actually thought Johannes Geis was going to be the best of the young center mids. He's (Weigl) the future of the German midfield, no doubt about it.

Tuchel basically left him alone in midfield for 20 minutes against Schalke yesterday while they were trying to get a goal. He eventually put Rode on late in the game but it was fun to see. It was super impressive watching him recycle possession over and over again. He has the intelligence of a guy who's been a 10 year pro and he only has like 25 Bundesliga appearances.
This post was edited on 10/30/16 at 6:59 pm
Posted by GoldenGuy
Member since Oct 2015
12798 posts
Posted on 11/1/16 at 5:36 pm to
TL;DR version: Charles Reep did early statistics and formed the work behind Long Ball. It had success in one or two places but the author says it ruined England's National team in the 90s. Does he go into any significant detail? Not really. Can you get a better summary on why Reep was incorrect from his wikipedia page? Yes.

So unfortunately, the article is written as the equivalent of having a two inch penis, but pointing out that your friend has a one inch penis, in order to pick up chicks.

Also, despite several mentions of three passes, there was no Hoosiers reference. Potential is wasted in spades.
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