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Started By
Message
re: Time to normalize relations with Iran
Posted on 8/21/14 at 9:03 am to Jim Rockford
Posted on 8/21/14 at 9:03 am to Jim Rockford
Can we normalize relations with Cuba first?
1
Posted on 8/21/14 at 9:08 am to GetCocky11
Let's see Iran recognize Israel and make it a more peaceful Middle East and stop arming Hezbollah.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 10:28 am to JEAUXBLEAUX
quote:
Let's see Iran recognize Israel and make it a more peaceful Middle East and stop arming Hezbollah.
Why does Iran have to be friends with Israel in order to be friends with the U.S.? We don't require this of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and any of the other Gulf states. What would make the Mideast more peaceful would be if Israel replaced Bibi's warmongering, ethnic-cleansing, Likud gevernment with a peace government in the mold of Rabin.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 11:37 am to trackfan
So if Labor won the election, Iran, Saudi Arabia et al would cozy up to Israel. They didn't do it in the 30 years of Labor. Such bs from the Hamas apologist. My point is let Iran stop supporting terrorists who would kill Americans before they can rejoin the world.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 12:24 pm to Jim Rockford
Two big differences between China and Iran:
1) China never actually did anything to actively harm the United States. Iran actively funded forces in Iraq to kill our troops in that country.
2) There was a larger strategic purpose behind forging a relationship with China, to exploit the Sino-Soviet split against the Soviet Union, which was one of the things that led to the Soviet Union's downfall (Kissinger, in my view, was the greatest American diplomat of the 20th century. Reagan won the Cold War but Kissinger lined up the diplomatic chess pieces to where Reagan could use them against the Soviets.)
There's no larger strategic purpose in supporting Iran. You actively develop a relationship with Iran and you undermine our pre-existing alliances with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, the UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain. Those countries want no part of the Shi'a crescent that Iran is trying to develop, because it destabilizes their countries.
Additionally, I see no evidence that Iran would give up its pursuit of nuclear weapons and it's activities against Israel if we develop a relationship with them. Finally, you undermine the nascent democracy movement in Iran by doing that, which was almost successful in 2009.
Iran deserves nothing. What we ought to do is maintain the sanctions and push against them like Reagan pushed against the Soviet Union, to the point that the Iranian regime collapses. At that point, I think Iran would shift toward a reasonably-functioning democracy. That should be our objective.
1) China never actually did anything to actively harm the United States. Iran actively funded forces in Iraq to kill our troops in that country.
2) There was a larger strategic purpose behind forging a relationship with China, to exploit the Sino-Soviet split against the Soviet Union, which was one of the things that led to the Soviet Union's downfall (Kissinger, in my view, was the greatest American diplomat of the 20th century. Reagan won the Cold War but Kissinger lined up the diplomatic chess pieces to where Reagan could use them against the Soviets.)
There's no larger strategic purpose in supporting Iran. You actively develop a relationship with Iran and you undermine our pre-existing alliances with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, the UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain. Those countries want no part of the Shi'a crescent that Iran is trying to develop, because it destabilizes their countries.
Additionally, I see no evidence that Iran would give up its pursuit of nuclear weapons and it's activities against Israel if we develop a relationship with them. Finally, you undermine the nascent democracy movement in Iran by doing that, which was almost successful in 2009.
Iran deserves nothing. What we ought to do is maintain the sanctions and push against them like Reagan pushed against the Soviet Union, to the point that the Iranian regime collapses. At that point, I think Iran would shift toward a reasonably-functioning democracy. That should be our objective.
This post was edited on 8/21/14 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 8/21/14 at 12:25 pm to trackfan
quote:
We don't require this of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and any of the other Gulf states.
If you don't think the Saudis have a reasonably productive, albeit covert, relationship with the Israelis, you're naive.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 12:50 pm to maine82
Another aspect to consider... If sanctions against Iran are removed, US firms will make bank on upgrading their outdated O&G infrastructure.
I know O&G interests are chomping at the bits for this.
I know O&G interests are chomping at the bits for this.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 4:47 pm to TX Tiger
are all allies of the U. S. fascist?
Posted on 8/21/14 at 4:59 pm to JEAUXBLEAUX
quote:
Let them stop supporting terrorist groups throughout the world
going on the amount of dollars and equipment spent the USA is the largest sponsor of terrorism in history.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:16 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
News flash, to Jews us Christians are still gentiles.
We know. We heard you the first 500 times.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:35 pm to Hater Bait
quote:
If Iran would chill out with the whole "death to America" thing, I'd be in favor.
I really would like the US to open up to Cuba.
Cuba is sucking up to Russia and Putin big time. Seems like the Cold War is on again.
LINK
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:44 pm to AU86
quote:
Cuba is sucking up to Russia and Putin big time. Seems like the Cold War is on again.
Cuba is fricking broke and would kick Putin to the curb and welcome tourist with open arms in one second if given the chance. We really need normalize relations with them just for the booze, cigars, and women.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:52 pm to cave canem
quote:
Cuba is fricking broke and would kick Putin to the curb and welcome tourist with open arms in one second if given the chance. We really need normalize relations with them just for the booze, cigars, and women.
Well their buddy Putin just forgave the debt they owed to the Russians. Turn out to be something like 80-90% of their entire debt. Cuba made it's bed with those a-hole Castro brothers. Putin is making a play in Latin America. He is determined to reestablish the Soviet empire. The man is dangerous and an enemy to the US. Now back to Iran.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 5:59 pm to maine82
quote:
maine82
Great post.
Almost shocking to see something so well thought-out in one of these threads.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 6:36 pm to AU86
quote:
Well their buddy Putin just forgave the debt they owed to the Russians. Turn out to be something like 80-90% of their entire debt. Cuba made it's bed with those a-hole Castro brothers. Putin is making a play in Latin America. He is determined to reestablish the Soviet empire. The man is dangerous and an enemy to the US. Now back to Iran.
You are not getting the picture BROKE as in debt is not the problem. Access to medicine, grain, industrial supplies etc is the problem. We could have thrown them a bone and kept Putin out if our government wanted to. Why pass up a free boogeyman though.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 6:49 pm to cave canem
quote:
You are not getting the picture BROKE as in debt is not the problem. Access to medicine, grain, industrial supplies etc is the problem. We could have thrown them a bone and kept Putin out if our government wanted to. Why pass up a free boogeyman though.
I actually agree with you with the aspect that we probably missed an opportunity with Cuba and Putin has moved in to take advantage of it. There is still a lot of politics in the US regarding Cuba. Those kind of things die hard in Washington.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 7:12 pm to JEAUXBLEAUX
quote:
So if Labor won the election, Iran, Saudi Arabia et al would cozy up to Israel. They didn't do it in the 30 years of Labor. Such bs from the Hamas apologist.
You're full of shite Likudnik! It was Labor that put on the table the only deal that the Palestinians ever agreed to, which Likud vehemently opposed and took a wrecking ball to as soon as they assumed power. Here's Bibi in his own words bragging about sabotaging Oslo when he didn't know cameras were running. It was Labor that made peace with Jordan's King Hussein. Labor also supported the 2002 Saudi Peace Plan which Likudnik Sharon rejected. Here's how a former AIPAC official explained the difference between Rabin (Labor) and Netanyahu (Likud) a month ago:
quote:
Today Binyamin Netanyahu is perhaps the most reviled leader of any country in the world and Israel, as a country, isn't doing much better. Jews in diaspora are themselves feeling the ugliness growing.
If, however, none of this had anything to do with Israel's behavior, the level of anti-Semitic and anti-Israel feelings would be constant, unaffected by the horrors in Gaza. To accept the logic of the various Jewish organizations (like the ADL) requires believing that the hate is always out there, unattached to anything except the anti-Semite's psychosis.
If that was true, then why was it that apparently both anti-Semitism and anti-Israel fervor dropped dramatically during the period that Yitzhak Rabin was prime minister of Israel and was pursuing peace with the Palestinians.
The "world" may hate Netanyahu but it revered Rabin. Poll after poll showed that he was admired throughout the world, approaching levels achieved by Nelson Mandela. When he was murdered more foreign leaders (including Muslim and Arab leaders) gathered in Israel for his funeral than had gathered for any such event since President Kennedy's funeral in 1963. And Jews benefited from the high regard in which Rabin was held.
Perhaps Rabin's pursuit of peace should not have affected attitudes toward Jews at large, but they did. By the same logic (the imperfect logic of human beings), Netanyahu's war on Gaza affects attitudes toward Jews at large. You can't keep saying "we are one" and expect anything else.
Rabin made us feel proud and more secure. Netanyahu produces the opposite effect.
It's sad. But not as sad as you may think.
When the next Rabin comes forward, attitudes toward both Israel and Jews will change as quickly as they changed when Rabin came to the White House and addressed the Palestinian people with these words, "We who have fought against you, the Palestinians, we say to you today, in a loud and a clear voice, enough of blood and tears, enough!"
LINK
quote:
My point is let Iran stop supporting terrorists who would kill Americans before they can rejoin the world.
More Likudnik bullshite! Iran doesn't support any anti-American terrorists and you know it. If you accused the Saudis or the Pakistanis of this, I might agree with you, but no one is accusing Iran of supporting ISIS, Al Qaeda or any other such group. If fighting Israel's enemies is such a high priority for you, let me remind you that there are international flights leaving for Ben Gurion Airport every day.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 7:35 pm to maine82
quote:
1) China never actually did anything to actively harm the United States. Iran actively funded forces in Iraq to kill our troops in that country.
I guess you never heard of the Vietnam War. Also, the idea of keeping permanent enemies because of past deeds is foolish, lest you also think we shouldn't be allies with the U.K., Germany, Italy, Japan, etc.
quote:
There's no larger strategic purpose in supporting Iran.
I disagree with you but Iran's geopolitical importance is irrelevant, because the policy of maintaining permanent enemies is stupid.
quote:
You actively develop a relationship with Iran and you undermine our pre-existing alliances with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, the UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain. Those countries want no part of the Shi'a crescent that Iran is trying to develop, because it destabilizes their countries.
IMO, some of those countries need to be kicked to the curb.
quote:
Additionally, I see no evidence that Iran would give up its pursuit of nuclear weapons and it's activities against Israel if we develop a relationship with them.
So?
quote:
Finally, you undermine the nascent democracy movement in Iran by doing that, which was almost successful in 2009.
Democracy movement? Don't make me laugh. The U.S. has never cared about democracy, it only cares about puppets. If it's a democratically elected puppet, that fine. If it's unelected, authoritarian, tyrannical puppet, that's fine too. The only thing that matters is that these governments be run by puppets, which is why we overthrew Iran's democratically-elected government in 1953, refused to recognize an election that brought Hamas to power in 2006, turned a blind eye when the Saudis and Bahrainis cracked down on a democratic movement in 2011 and pretended that it wasn't a coup when the Egyptian military overthrew Morsi in 2013.
quote:
Iran deserves nothing. What we ought to do is maintain the sanctions and push against them like Reagan pushed against the Soviet Union, to the point that the Iranian regime collapses. At that point, I think Iran would shift toward a reasonably-functioning democracy. That should be our objective.
You take the prize for one of the most intellectually dishonest posts I've ever seen on this board.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 7:39 pm to maine82
quote:
If you don't think the Saudis have a reasonably productive, albeit covert, relationship with the Israelis, you're naive.
The only place the Saudis and the Israelis have relations is in your delusional mind. The Saudis were actually Hamas' main financiers until Hamas started cozying up to Iran, and the Saudis and Egyptians kicked Hamas to the curb for insubordination.
Posted on 8/21/14 at 8:15 pm to trackfan
quote:
The only place the Saudis and the Israelis have relations is in your delusional mind.
Wayyyy wrong
quote:
The Saudis were actually Hamas' main financiers until Hamas started cozying up to Iran, and the Saudis and Egyptians kicked Hamas to the curb for insubordination
Yes this is true, these two are not exclusive to each other
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