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Message
re: Justice Steven's proposed 6 amendments to the constitution
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:17 am to boosiebadazz
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:17 am to boosiebadazz
quote:
the government is there to make you stop and ensure I can speak my mind.
As long as you aren't disturbing someone while speaking your mind. Then the government has the right to incarcerate you.
It's the double edged sword, winners and losers. The poor and the extremely wealthy will look to government for protection. A government powerful enough to protect you is also powerful enough to take away your rights.
We don't have the most imprisoned population because we have shittier citizens, we do it because we love our protections, and love law and order, and that comes with a price.
If you're counting on government to give you a certain quality of life, there will be losers in the process. Altruism is an illusion and we're all in it for ourselves. So, it it's working for us, we really don't care who the losers are. I'd certainly call myself a minimalist when it comes to government simply because if it has the power to grant, it has the power to take away.
1
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:19 am to Sentrius
quote:
For any anarchist society to succeed, respect and advocation for property rights has to be at a very high premium and there's none in Somalia. Now the thing is, this isn't because people are being evil, because it's human nature and expected when there's no venues of repercussion.
True. I don't see how the advocation of a non-statist society moves beyond this point.
quote:
we barely have our property rights enforced under a gov't
False. I see property rights respected everyday. Don't let the anomalies you hear about carry more weight than the stories you never hear about.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:20 am to Sentrius
quote:No. I don't think human nature is inherently violent. I know you can show me studies that show that it is. I can show you studies that it's not so I'm not going to convince you. A lot of it has to do with what kind of society people were raised in.
because it's human nature
quote:There are no property rights in a statist society; the state owns all property. So an anti-statist society would either be equal or better in that respect.
Also, we barely have our property rights enforced under a gov't, what makes you think an anarchist society would be any better on that front?
This post was edited on 5/3/14 at 12:21 am
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:21 am to RogerTheShrubber
I agree with everything you said, but if my two choices are the existence of government versus pure anarchy, I'm choosing government.
Once I choose government, then I move on to the points you just articulated.
Once I choose government, then I move on to the points you just articulated.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:22 am to boosiebadazz
quote:
I agree with everything you said, but if my two choices are the existence of government versus pure anarchy, I'm choosing government.
Depends on the government. There are some I'd as soon live in anarchy. I can isolate myself and be ok.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:24 am to RogerTheShrubber
I agree that some forms of government would be worse than pure anarchy, However, I'd also posit that some forms of government offer greater promise and greater collective good than pure anarchy.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:25 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:Before you make that choice, it is important to note that history shows us that most governments do nothing but grow and get more authoritarian over time.
Depends on the government. There are some I'd as soon live in anarchy.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:25 am to boosiebadazz
quote:
True. I don't see how the advocation of a non-statist society moves beyond this point.
It's the crux of where my issues get into it with ancaps.
quote:
False. I see property rights respected everyday. Don't let the anomalies you hear about carry more weight than the stories you never hear about.
This may be true but my mind is just still blown over it being shite all over with the Arizona private business discrimination debacle a few months ago. This is one of the evil things gov't does; discriminating against private action that's not publicly funded.
This post was edited on 5/3/14 at 12:31 am
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:27 am to boosiebadazz
quote:
However, I'd also posit that some forms of government offer greater promise and greater collective good than pure anarchy.
Yes. But all govt. isn't good govt. I'll take one that allows extensive liberties. That's really what made our nation great. Allowing people to do the things people do best.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:28 am to boosiebadazz
quote:Too many violations = hard to get re-elected. Got to do enough to keep power and not have an uprising.
False. I see property rights respected everyday
This post was edited on 5/3/14 at 12:31 am
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:30 am to Gmorgan4982
quote:
A lot of it has to do with what kind of society people were raised in.
A lot of it has to do with demographics, lay of the land, quality of schooling and other factors.
quote:
There are no property rights in a statist society; the state owns all property. So an anti-statist society would either be equal or better in that respect.
I disagree but we'll leave it at that.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:30 am to Gmorgan4982
I used to think your views were rooted in some sort of intellectualism, but now I just think they're rooted in an incredible cynicism. Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:30 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:Yep. No doubt. Give people more freedoms, they accomplish amazing things and build so many things. After a while, the government sees a whole bunch of cool, exciting things it can control and tax. Next thing you know, people are taxed nearly half of their income, you have hundreds of military bases all over the world, you have an astonishing number of people behind bars, and all of your electronic communications are monitored and archived.
That's really what made our nation great. Allowing people to do the things people do best
This post was edited on 5/3/14 at 12:32 am
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:31 am to RogerTheShrubber
Right, but at that point we're debating the nuances and structure of government, not whether it should exist in the first place.
This post was edited on 5/3/14 at 12:32 am
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:32 am to boosiebadazz
quote:
but now I just think they're rooted in an incredible cynicism.
I'd love to know what happened to G for it to be on a level like this. It'd be mind blowing.... I hope.
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:32 am to boosiebadazz
Cool. Now I'm a cynical, stupid, doody-headed hack. 
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:34 am to Gmorgan4982
quote:
Yep. No doubt. Give people more freedoms, they accomplish amazing things and build so many things. After a while, they government sees a whole bunch of cool, exciting things it can control and tax. Next thing you know, people are taxed nearly half of their income, you have an astonishing number of people behind bars, and all of your electronic communications are monitored and archived.
I actually think your scenarios will all be true in the next 20 years of so. Hell, several of them already are. Massive redistribution will be the norm in a couple decades when technology makes many jobs extinct. That kind of society will require more control and power IMO
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:35 am to Gmorgan4982
You're not stupid and I never called you so. I think even you'd admit you're cynical. You came off as pretty hackish when you were discounting landing people on the moon and eradicating diseases that have killed millions simply to maintain your argument that government is bad,
So yeah, I stand by 2 of the 3 things you said I said.
So yeah, I stand by 2 of the 3 things you said I said.
This post was edited on 5/3/14 at 12:36 am
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:39 am to boosiebadazz
How is it hackish? I argued that it probably could have been done more efficiently without all of the theft and violence that the government brings. Why is it that we need violence to solve all these problems or to accomplish anything?
Posted on 5/3/14 at 12:43 am to Gmorgan4982
You didn't argue anything. You offered a conclusion that it *probably could, and then a copout that we really can't even know if things would be better under a non-state system.
Everytime I ask you for specifics for what you non-state system would look like, you defer or obfuscate.
You never offer ideas for other to critique. You'd make a great defense attorney. Simply ask questions and poke holes.
However, it's late and I'm tired so I'm going to bed. Always a pleasure, G
Everytime I ask you for specifics for what you non-state system would look like, you defer or obfuscate.
You never offer ideas for other to critique. You'd make a great defense attorney. Simply ask questions and poke holes.
However, it's late and I'm tired so I'm going to bed. Always a pleasure, G
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