quote:
1. When you say, "I don't agree. What did we do before law enforcement and military dudes started marketing their brands of shooting the "right way?" Are you suggesting (a) that the schools I recommended are doing this, or (b) are you saying that some trainers out there are doing this ?

Some. I've been very careful to qualify that because I do think there is good training out there, obviously. My issue is that it isn't all good. I'd go so far as saying most of it isn't very good, particularly for civilains and defensive use.

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I don't think any of the trainers I listed teach shooting "the right way," nor do they try to reinforce SEAL mentalities. I know there are folks out there who do this, and who try to market their military backgrounds - but I respectfully think you might be mixing the guys I named into that group. (You're one of the few people on this board who has the frame of reference to enable you to compare private training facilities - which is why I asked your reasons for painting the folks I mentioned in a less than favorable light). I'm assuming you'd be in a better position to do that after training with them - or after someone you really trust has trained with them.

I have trained with a few of them. Some I liked, some I didn't. My experience and abilities don't match up with the common shooter, though.

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3. When you say, "That doesn't mean everyone needs to carry a Glock or they're carrying an unreliable piece of shite," I think I covered that and I think we clearly agree.

Then I guess I don't know what you mean when you say there are two handguns to consider, that how a firearm fits a user doesn't matter, and that a Glock should be everyone's choice because police officers carry them.

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5. So just to be clear,I think we agree on most of this -- maybe all of it. I was/am just a little confused by item #1.

I think we circled away from my main point. It seemed as if you were appealing to authority by referencing the training you had that others didn't. I don't think you spending time in training negates the other dude's opinion. I also don't think any of the trainers you've been talking about would tell everyone to buy a Glock or an M&P, and nothing else. If they did, that'd put them squarely in the group I'm talking about.

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Posted by dawg23

Baton Rouge, La

Member since Jul 2011

5065 posts

Posted on 3/3/19 at 3:41 pm to DisplacedBuckeye

quote:
Then I guess I don't know what you mean when you say there are two handguns to consider, that how a firearm fits a user doesn't matter, and that a Glock should be everyone's choice because police officers carry them.

Thought I explained it. As you pointed out, I listed half a dozen quality makes, not just "Glocks.".

I mentioned LEO use of top tier guns (I linked an article that lists all 50 State Trooper agencies and the guns they carry. It wasn't "just Glocks.") The point was to illustrate that someone/some agency has in some fashion tested reliability. It's reasonably quantifiable, and the consumer doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.

I pretty clearly (for a redneck) said (pretty sure I said) that some people have really little hands -- and thus may not be able to use one of the aforementioned guns. I definitely said "feel" matters less than reliability. At least that was my intent. But for years people have posted the same advice on this Board - "Just go to a gun store and buy the one that feels good in your hand." Yes, I agree that "feel" is of some value, but I think it's nowhere near as important as reliability.

quote:
I think we circled away from my main point. It seemed as if you were appealing to authority by referencing the training you had that others didn't. I don't think you spending time in training negates the other dude's opinion.

Well, we probably disagree on this one. Take a person who has never had any training, has only owned one handgun, only owned it for 6 months and has only fired 50 rounds thru it (not pointing to any "real" person - just making a point). That hypothetical person's opinion, or the opinion of a soccer mom who bought her first pistol last month, posted on a forum in response to a "newbie's" request for advice in picking a SD pistol, has little value.

I think your experience would negate the opinions of a lot of people. (If I knew which private schools you've trained with, I'd maybe be able to quantify that.

)

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I have trained with a few of them. Some I liked, some I didn't. My experience and abilities don't match up with the common shooter, though.

I can appreciate your not wanting to name private trainers you don't like. If you're willing to, I'd be interested in the names of the ones you have personally trained with and found to be be good at what they do?

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Posted by DisplacedBuckeye

Member since Dec 2013

71661 posts

Posted on 3/3/19 at 4:19 pm to dawg23

quote:
Thought I explained it. As you pointed out, I listed half a dozen quality makes, not just "Glocks.".

Sure, but then you proceeded to argue why no one should choose one of them. Just get a Glock 19 is what you said I believe and part of your justification for that is their prevalence in law enforcement. When challenged on that, you brought out the point about training.

quote:
I mentioned LEO use of top tier guns (I linked an article that lists all 50 State Trooper agencies and the guns they carry. It wasn't "just Glocks.") The point was to illustrate that someone/some agency has in some fashion tested reliability. It's reasonably quantifiable, and the consumer doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.

That isn't exclusive to Glocks or even every model of Glock. If you had a rate of 100% to reference you'd at least have the foundation of a point.

quote:
I pretty clearly (for a redneck) said (pretty sure I said) that some people have really little hands -- and thus may not be able to use one of the aforementioned guns. I definitely said "feel" matters less than reliability. At least that was my intent. But for years people have posted the same advice on this Board - "Just go to a gun store and buy the one that feels good in your hand." Yes, I agree that "feel" is of some value, but I think it's nowhere near as important as reliability.

Well, no. You said to ignore the advice to get what feels good in your hands, unless you have small hands. I can't disagree with you more on that. Reliability doesn't mean a whole lot if you don't shoot your firearm and become proficient and accurate with it.

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Well, we probably disagree on this one. Take a person who has never had any training, has only owned one handgun, only owned it for 6 months and has only fired 50 rounds thru it (not pointing to any "real" person - just making a point). That hypothetical person's opinion, or the opinion of a soccer mom who bought her first pistol last month, posted on a forum in response to a "newbie's" request for advice in picking a SD pistol, has little value.

Does that poster fit that description? I'd say no. Do I? Again, I'd say no.

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I think your experience would negate the opinions of a lot of people. (If I knew which private schools you've trained with, I'd maybe be able to quantify that. ?)

I've trained with Haley, Vickers, Gunsite, Blackwater or whatever they are today, Crucible, etc. Dozens. Some have been good, some have been adequate, some have been shite. None of them inherently cancels out someone else's opinions or experience.

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I can appreciate your not wanting to name private trainers you don't like. If you're willing to, I'd be interested in the names of the ones you have personally trained with and found to be be good at what they do?

I'd rather not get into that. This thread has already moved too far from its intent.

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Posted by dawg23

Baton Rouge, La

Member since Jul 2011

5065 posts

Posted on 3/3/19 at 4:41 pm to DisplacedBuckeye

You're right - this thread has moved quite a ways from its intent and now is going in debating point circles.

Did you take a wrong turn in life and become a lawyer ?

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Posted by DisplacedBuckeye

Member since Dec 2013

71661 posts

Posted on 3/3/19 at 4:52 pm to dawg23

You know, I didn't, but a lot of people who know me say I've missed my calling in life.

*Edit

All that said, I'd personally recommend a Glock 19.

This post was edited on 3/3/19 at 4:53 pm

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