re: Man urinates on the altar in St. Peter's Basilica

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He is a former Catholic.

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Sorry if I've given that impression. I'm not a former Catholic. I know several former Catholics, but I was raised in the Reformed tradition and maintain it today.

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Folks, note that I have explained to foo that "I pray you, good sir" is the same as asking for something from someone. Foo insists on sticking to his lie that "to pray to someone for something" is an Act of Worship. No amount of good evidence or logic will cause him to consider any conclusion other than his own.

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Come on now. I use the Bible and logic to support my conclusions and you use Shakespeare. You haven't rebutted anything I've said, but just double down on saying I'm lying.

If you want to show me where I'm wrong, please do so, but using a turn of phrase from Shakespeare isn't exactly an iron-clad argument.

Please respond to my previous question: do you pray to your sever at a restaurant to refill your drink? Do you pray to your living friends for help when you need it?

I doubt you do, because we don't use the word "pray" and "ask" interchangeably. Even in Christian prayer, like the Lord's Prayer, praying includes more than just asking for something. There is the traditional acrostic of ACTS to help people learn to pray: Adoration (praising God), Confession (of sins to God), Thanksgiving (for God's blessings), and Supplication (asking of God that which we desire). Only one of those elements of prayer is actually focused on asking something of God, and yet you claim when you pray to the saints, you are merely asking them things.

Let me share with you just one of many prayers offered to Mary from traditional catholic prayers:

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O BLESSED Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay thee thy just dues of praise and thanksgiving, thou who by the wondrous assent of thy will didst rescue a fallen world? What songs of praise can our weak human nature recite in thy honour, since it is by thy intervention alone that it has found the way to restoration? Accept, then, such poor thanks as we have here to offer, though they be unequal to thy merits; and, receiving our vows, obtain by thy prayers the remission of our offenses. Carry thou our prayers within the sanctuary of the heavenly audience, and bring forth from it the antidote of our reconciliation. May the sins we bring before Almighty God through thee, become pardonable through thee; may what we ask for with sure confidence, through thee be granted. Take our offering, grant us our requests, obtain pardon for what we fear, for thou art the sole hope of sinners. Through thee we hope for the remission of our sins, and in thee, O blessed Lady, is our hope of reward. Holy Mary, succor the miserable, help the fainthearted, comfort the sorrowful, pray for thy people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God; may all who keep thy holy commemoration feel now thy help and protection. Be thou ever ready to assist us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it thy continual care to pray for the people of God, thou who, blessed by God, didst merit to bear the Redeemer of the world, Who liveth and reigneth, world without end. Amen.

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See if you can pick out all four elements of prayer that I mentioned (ACTS). I see them. It isn't merely asking for something like you'd ask a friend to come over to watch the Super Bowl.

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If I ask you to pray for me, I'm not praying to you.

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Prayer is a religious act that is directed to those in the spiritual realm. You don't pray to the living on earth, do you?

Have you ever prayed to a cashier to make change? Have you prayed to your boss for a raise? Have you prayed to your spouse to hand you something out of reach? Have you prayed to a friend to give you a ride somewhere?

I think you get my point. Asking a living (on earth) person for something is never referred to as praying to them, so why is it when you close your eyes, bow your head, and assume a worshipful posture of dedication and devotion to someone in Heaven that you downplay what you are doing in prayer to merely asking for something? Would you say that there is no difference at all between praying to God and asking a stranger for directions?

It's been a while, but I see the Catholic bashing from Foo is still going on.

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If you'd like to learn about what Catholics Worship, check out the website Catholic Answers.

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I recently deepened my understanding and therefore my devotion and love for the Mass, when I figured out what true Catholic Worship is, and well actually biblical worship.

Simply put in the Old Testament when they worshiped God they offered sacrifice, burnt offerings, even bread and wine!

As I understand it there were two main gathering places for the Jewish people, first the Temple and second the Synagogue. (this has been reduced to the Synagogue since the destruction of the temple in 70 AD) The temple the main thing they did was sacrifice. In the outer courtyard they had the altar of burnt offering where they sacrificed animals such as lambs. In the Holy Place they had the table of shewbread and the altar of incense. Simply put the temple was a place of sacrifice, and sacrifice was the way they worshiped God in the old Testament.

Secondly, there is the Synagogue, where the word of the Lord was read.

In the Mass the two are combined, in the Church there is a new Synagogue, namely the ambo where the readings are proclaimed and the homily given. Also the Temple is fulfilled in every Catholic Church, when the one sacrifice of Christ is participated in (not a resacrifice). The Eucharist is an offering of Jesus to the Father, just as it was on the cross.

Understanding worship as sacrifice is key to understanding why Catholics don’t worship Mary or the saints. We honor them, we ask for their intercession. You will never see Catholics offer sacrifice to Mary or the saints, if it does happen it is completely against the teachings of the Church.

Also this is what Protestant Churches are missing. Protestants pray to God, a good thing, praise God, a good thing, teach the scriptures, a good thing, but they don’t worship God, when you properly understand worship as sacrifice.

I'm sure Foo will argue that the only sacrifice is spiritual sacrifice as Romans 12 explains it. Yes this is worship of God but it isn't the only worship. Jesus instituted the worship of the Mass at the last supper, offering himself as bread and wine, which we do in memory of him.

I also think of 1 Corinthians 10:21-24 when Paul tells us not to drink the cup of demons but only the cup of the Lord. I'm sure Foo will disagree but the cup of demons relates to pagan worship or sacrifice, and the cup of the Lord is the Eucharist.

see the video I posted to see how Catholics distinguish prayer and worship.