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re: Flight 800 crash animation

Posted on 3/3/25 at 4:37 pm to
Posted by LCA131
Home of the Fake Sig lines
Member since Feb 2008
75019 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 4:37 pm to
quote:

not a big deal one way or another


Stop with the peace-making, flyboy... Excuse me, Capt Flyboy.

Posted by 777Tiger
Member since Mar 2011
82925 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 4:45 pm to
quote:

Excuse me, Capt Flyboy.


that’s more like it!!
Posted by Cfrobel
Member since Nov 2019
312 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 5:00 pm to
quote:

Cal Tech did the vapor tests heating the jet fuel to the specified temperature. A spark failed to ignite it. I downloaded the entire report back in the day. Took for bloody ever to down load back then. They had to use a torch to get it to ignite.


Looks like Caltech debunks your claims:

"Unfortunately, misinformation about aviation kerosene combustion and misrepresentations about the official investigation of TWA 800 and the investigators have been published in print and on the worldwide web. The most common of these erroneous claims are discussed below:

You can put a match out in Jet A at room temperature so it can't possibly explode inside an aircraft fuel tank.

False. You can do this with many fuels that have sufficiently high flash or fire points. At room temperature, a combustible liquid fuel has enough heat capacity to absorb all the energy and extinguish a small match flame without raising the fuel surface temperature above the fire or flash point. A flame cannot be sustained over a liquid fuel until the surface temperature exceeds the fire point. A flash will not result unless the fuel temperature and vapor space are above the flash point. [Kuchta and Clodfelter] This does not apply to the case of TWA 800 because a) the explosion occurred in the fuel vapor-air mixture and did not require a fire on the fuel surface, b) the fuel and air inside the tank were hotter than the flash point, and c) the effective flash point was lowered due to the lower outside air pressure at the altitude of the explosion. The Jet A involved in the Center Wing Tank (CWT) explosion had a flash point temperature of about 115 F and the decreased air pressure at the explosion altitude of 13.8 kft lowered the effective flash point to about 100 F. [Exhibit20S] The temperatures inside the tank were between 100 and 130 F, and at some points, as high at 140 F [Exhibit 23F]."

https://shepherd.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/JetA/misconceptions.html

(Edit to fix url)
This post was edited on 3/3/25 at 6:20 pm
Posted by No Colors
Sandbar
Member since Sep 2010
12070 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 5:01 pm to
"Undersea warfare test firing range" is not the same thing as an anti aircraft missile free fire drill taking place less than 20 miles off the end of the runway at JFK....

"Hey man, what about all those commercial aircraft flying overhead? Wouldn't it be risky to test SAMs here?....No, this new cutting edge super secret technology can tell the difference. Our test today is to make sure it locks on the target drone and not the civilian airlines in the background. Missile Away! Let's hope this works!"

Come on man.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
23062 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:03 pm to
quote:

Looks like Caltech debunks your claims:


That isn't at all my claim.

The test they did only found that jet fuel type A heated to the presumed temperature range did not ignite with a spark. It did ignite with a torch.

quote:

You can put a match out in Jet A at room temperature so it can't possibly explode inside an aircraft fuel tank.


That's an intentional misnomer.

That was the original test.

This post was edited on 3/3/25 at 6:12 pm
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
23062 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:10 pm to
quote:

"Undersea warfare test firing range" is not the same thing as an anti aircraft missile free fire drill taking place less than 20 miles off the end of the runway at JFK....


So now you discovered that there is a test firing range near Long Island. It was also active when the Flight 800 accident happened.

Looking at the location of the accident on Google World, it is 55 miles from JFK.

Posted by Cfrobel
Member since Nov 2019
312 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:17 pm to
quote:

The test they did only found that jet fuel type A heated to the presumed temperature range did not ignite with a spark. It did ignite with a torch.


It seems likely that while you may have read the report you either misunderstood or selectively chose the points to take away.
Another debunk from Caltech:

The NTSB investigators had to use a torch in order to start combustion in Jet A laboratory experiments.

False. Jet A vapor-air mixtures were ignited by many different ignition sources in the Caltech experiments. Experiments were conducted with spark ignition sources [Exhibits 20T and L] with energies ranging between 1 mJ and 100 J and the 1/4-scale experiments simply used a hot filament [Exhibit 20O]. The preliminary experiments discussed in Exhibit 20D used a flame jet from a 1/4-inch diameter nozzle, comparable to some of the smaller openings in the spanwise beams and spars within the tank. Other experiments with pools of liquid creating vapor-air mixtures in the entire ullage with spark ignition in both the laboratory testing [Exhibit 20L and T] and hot filaments in the 1/4-scale experiments [Exhibit 20O, P] demonstrate that the explosion of Jet A vapor mixtures in an ullage over a thin layer of fuel is associated with a propagating flame (deflagration) in the vapor-air mixture rather than a pool fire on the liquid layer. The combustion time is sufficiently short so that the combustion is completed before appreciable venting occurs. [see 1/4-scale experiment number 67 - Exhibit 20P]
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
23062 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:27 pm to
quote:

I said the sun was still up...op made it sound like noon with a busy beach


They aren't crazy crowded like Jones Beach, but these are from typical summer shots near the accident and there are miles of little townlet and village beaches out that way.







Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
23062 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:31 pm to
quote:

it was dusk, and although pretty close to summer solstice they aren’t that far north for very much light at that time, not a big deal one way or another


TWA Flight 800 Accident Weather
The weather in New York on the day of the TWA Flight 800 accident was typical of summer in the Northeastern United States, with temperatures hovering around 28°C (82°F) at John F. Kennedy International Airport as the flight prepared for its scheduled 19:00 departure.
There were no weather or other external factors that influenced the breakup of the aircraft.

AI-generated answer. Please verify critical facts.
Posted by 777Tiger
Member since Mar 2011
82925 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:35 pm to
quote:

Please verify critical facts.


I’ll tell you a couple of facts, neither weather nor a missile brought that old rope start 747 down
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
23062 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:45 pm to
quote:

The NTSB investigators had to use a torch in order to start combustion in Jet A laboratory experiments.

False. Jet A vapor-air mixtures were ignited by many different ignition sources in the Caltech experiments.


I know what was in the original report and that was not it. Perhaps, they did more tests with modified setups to get the results they wanted. Why not. The CIA, FBI and NTSB did.


Posted by MadDogs
Member since Jul 2018
453 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 6:58 pm to
quote:

Been one just off of Long Island since the 1920's. Notice the color key in green indicating test firing range.


Probably pointless to even comment as your mind is already made up but no one is test firing missiles in that test range you hi-lighted. It is for testing underwater, for things like torpedoes. Source: I spent years sailing in and out of there while in the Navy.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
23062 posts
Posted on 3/3/25 at 7:25 pm to
quote:

quote:
Been one just off of Long Island since the 1920's. Notice the color key in green indicating test firing range.


Probably pointless to even comment as your mind is already made up but no one is test firing missiles in that test range you hi-lighted. It is for testing underwater, for things like torpedoes. Source: I spent years sailing in and out of there while in the Navy.


Would it be super secret to fire an anti-air missile from a submarine? Yes, there was a target drone that crashed late that afternoon on Long Island. It was observed by a town mayor and associates and reported in the local Long Island papers.

I knew too many people on Long Island to buy the tale being sold. Too many people saw the same thing. Some of them were military pilots.

I suppose that my interest over the years to follow it closely has been because my father was a top aircraft accident investigator so I kind of grew up that stuff.

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