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Started By
Message
re: Delphi, IN Murders Trial Thread
Posted on 11/4/24 at 10:26 am to Gris Gris
Posted on 11/4/24 at 10:26 am to Gris Gris
quote:
They are able to discuss evidence and testimony as long as they don't form opinions about it. I'm not sure how you police that...but they do have deputies with them at all times when they are together.
Wow. I didn’t know they allowed that there. Normally, they aren’t supposed to discuss the case at all until deliberations. I think they always have a court employee/security with them when they’re together as a group.
I forgot to mention that they all have to be together in order to discuss.
1
Posted on 11/4/24 at 11:51 am to bikerack
In that video I last posted they speak a bit about the jury stuff. They must unanimously vote guilty or not guilty, if they don't, then it's a hung jury and the process may start all over again if the state wants to take it back to trial. They elect a foreman once deliberations start.
I'm guessing they are getting miserable. They are sequestered - no TV, no radio, no media of any sort. They can go to a common room where a TV is provided and they can watch football games or have DVDs brought in. They are allowed some phone calls with family but I believe they have to be supervised by LE when doing so.
They are provided lunch at the courthouse, I believe. Not sure what they do for the other meals. I don't think they get any time to exercise or anything like that. I don't know what they do for supplies like shampoo, doing laundry etc.
I'm guessing once they start deliberating there will be a couple or a few that are like 'not guilty' and they dig in and this quickly gets to a hung jury. Just my guess. I don't think they will be moved from their position and I think they'll be ready to go home.
They also talked about the Defense team - they are not pro bono but they are under some program like "indigent defense compensation" or something like that - I think they get paid by the state, at a rate that is like a public defender, but nothing near what they'd be getting going totally private. Apparently they have had trouble getting paid at times. This whole trial has been a circus. Not a good look for the state.
I'm guessing they are getting miserable. They are sequestered - no TV, no radio, no media of any sort. They can go to a common room where a TV is provided and they can watch football games or have DVDs brought in. They are allowed some phone calls with family but I believe they have to be supervised by LE when doing so.
They are provided lunch at the courthouse, I believe. Not sure what they do for the other meals. I don't think they get any time to exercise or anything like that. I don't know what they do for supplies like shampoo, doing laundry etc.
I'm guessing once they start deliberating there will be a couple or a few that are like 'not guilty' and they dig in and this quickly gets to a hung jury. Just my guess. I don't think they will be moved from their position and I think they'll be ready to go home.
They also talked about the Defense team - they are not pro bono but they are under some program like "indigent defense compensation" or something like that - I think they get paid by the state, at a rate that is like a public defender, but nothing near what they'd be getting going totally private. Apparently they have had trouble getting paid at times. This whole trial has been a circus. Not a good look for the state.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 11:58 am to POTUS2024
quote:
I'm guessing once they start deliberating there will be a couple or a few that are like 'not guilty' and they dig in and this quickly gets to a hung jury. Just my guess. I don't think they will be moved from their position and I think they'll be ready to go home.
Agree 100%
It has been interesting to hear about the jury member's reactions to certain things and how they have been looking at certain people in the courtroom.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 12:43 pm to bikerack
Summary from today, so far.
9:10 a.m. - The defense's 12th witness is Dr. Polly Wescott, a neuropsychologist who specializes in forensic psychiatry.
In May 2023, Wescott started working with Allen's defense team at a rate of $450 an hour.
Wescott has testified as a witness for both the state and various defense teams.
Wescott said she worked with inmates at Wabash Valley Prison and the Indiana Women's Prison. Wescott has also worked with police crisis intervention teams.
Wescott said when the defense team reached out, they wanted her to do three things:
Look at Allen's mental health history.
Do a neuropsychological exam
Determine the breadth and context for his mental decline during the time of his confession.
Wescott started off with Allen's mental health history and records. Wescott said she watched and listened to Allen. She also watched "extensive video footage" and "listened to phone calls" Allen made from prison.
Wescott said it is "very unusual" to get to see 20 hours of video footage of a patient and review suicide watch notes.
Wescott said she saw Westville and Wabash Valley video and information through March 2024.
Wescott met with Allen in August 2023 and performed an evaluation. Wescott said this was a two-hour evaluation and a five-hour test over two days.
Wescott also met with Kathy Allen several weeks later.
Wescott said she also asked for medical logs, more records and then wrote a lengthy report. Wescott's report was entered as evidence. It included the following:
Allen has "extensive mental health history"
Intense anxiety and fears about school and around other people. The fears are focused on what others are thinking about him.
As an adult, Allen started medicine for anxiety and depression.
Allen felt like he was letting down his family and that no one likes him. Allen felt that way from his 20s through his time in prison.
Allen's anxiety caused his depression.
Under external stress, Allen "crumbles & falls apart — literally crawling up in a ball."
Wescott sited Allen's work history. Allen got promoted by the added stress sent him into more anxiety and depression.
Always a time when Allen was suffering from some level of anxiety or depression
Wescott also found Allen has dependent personality disorder
Allen really needs other people to feel like a whole person. He relied heavily on his wife and mother.
Someone with this disorder can't function, make decisions or exist on their own
Constant feeling of abandonment and rejection, needs loved ones around
"He would fall apart when they were not physically there."
Wescott said she had six conclusions about Allen:
"He was a fragile egg," Wescott said. Allen had a long history of mental health issues.
Allen was not faking or exaggerating his mental health issues.
Allen had clear cognitive decline. Wescott said his thinking was slowed down, his problem-solving was low and Allen was stuck in a loop thinking over the same things.
Allen had a clear distinction of decline in mental and physical health within four months of arriving at Westville. Wescott included psychosis in this, including hallucinations and delusions and "false beliefs about things that aren't true." The judge told the jury this was "not substantive evidence."
Wescott diagnosed Allen with major depressive disorder (MDD).
Wescott said that MDD and high levels of stress can cause psychosis.
A letter that Allen wrote on Nov. 9, 2022 was entered as evidence. The state objected. The defense said the goal of showing the letter was to show the jury Allen's thought process, not to share the contents of what he said. The judge allowed a redacted version of the letter.
"You can see their thought process," Wescott said of psychosis patients. She said the integrity of sentences was what she was looking for.
Wescott said she compared the Nov. 9, 2022 letter to Allen's confession letter in the spring of 2023. Wescott said the letter structures were different and that the thoughts were fragmented in the 2023 confession. Wescott said there was no grammar or punctuation. Wescott said Allen even signed the letter differently.
The defense attempted to enter a clinical MCMI test that was administered to Allen. The state objected that they did not get a detailed copy, only a summary. The defense said the state didn't take the time to depose Wescott in the last 18 months, and that the results were available to them for months. The defense said they asked for assessment tools and were told no. The judge sustained the objection, blocking the results.
Wescott said there was "no indication (Allen) wasn't telling the truth or not being straight forward" in her evaluation.
Wescott said Allen showed a strong fear of rejection and abandonment, and that Allen avoids conflict.
Wescott said she performed 25 different, objective tests on Allen. Wescott said they consistently indicated Allen had psychosis.
Wescott said someone is much more likely to enter psychosis when he is facing stress and/or anxiety.
Wescott said she started seeing changes between December 2022 and March 2023, with less emotional response and more mumbling.
Wescott said the most obvious latent psychosis symptoms were in April, May and June 2023.
Wescott said there was a decline in psychosis after June or July 2023.
"No indication of faking or any type of exaggeration," Wescott said.
Previous testimony from state's witnesses working at the Indiana Department of Corrections had mentioned "serious mental illness" (SMI) for Allen. Wescott said SMI is only used in prison. In clinical settings, they are called "severe mental illness" or "chronic mental illness." Wescott said Allen met those definitions before prison and while he was in prison.
Wescott said she received Dr. Monica Wala's notes. Wescott said the confession description reads like a story. Wala's notes about the confession seemed like there was a logical story with a beginning, middle and end. Wescott said she saw a discrepancy between Wala's notes and what Wescott saw in the suicide watch notes and video tape from the same day.
Wescott said that in psychosis or delirium, a person doesn't know what's real and what isn't because of changes in the brain.
The state objected, saying Allen was never diagnosed with delirium. The judge overruled the objection.
Wescott said someone put in solitary confinement for a long time with sensory deprivation can lead to delirium.
Continuing in next post.
9:10 a.m. - The defense's 12th witness is Dr. Polly Wescott, a neuropsychologist who specializes in forensic psychiatry.
In May 2023, Wescott started working with Allen's defense team at a rate of $450 an hour.
Wescott has testified as a witness for both the state and various defense teams.
Wescott said she worked with inmates at Wabash Valley Prison and the Indiana Women's Prison. Wescott has also worked with police crisis intervention teams.
Wescott said when the defense team reached out, they wanted her to do three things:
Look at Allen's mental health history.
Do a neuropsychological exam
Determine the breadth and context for his mental decline during the time of his confession.
Wescott started off with Allen's mental health history and records. Wescott said she watched and listened to Allen. She also watched "extensive video footage" and "listened to phone calls" Allen made from prison.
Wescott said it is "very unusual" to get to see 20 hours of video footage of a patient and review suicide watch notes.
Wescott said she saw Westville and Wabash Valley video and information through March 2024.
Wescott met with Allen in August 2023 and performed an evaluation. Wescott said this was a two-hour evaluation and a five-hour test over two days.
Wescott also met with Kathy Allen several weeks later.
Wescott said she also asked for medical logs, more records and then wrote a lengthy report. Wescott's report was entered as evidence. It included the following:
Allen has "extensive mental health history"
Intense anxiety and fears about school and around other people. The fears are focused on what others are thinking about him.
As an adult, Allen started medicine for anxiety and depression.
Allen felt like he was letting down his family and that no one likes him. Allen felt that way from his 20s through his time in prison.
Allen's anxiety caused his depression.
Under external stress, Allen "crumbles & falls apart — literally crawling up in a ball."
Wescott sited Allen's work history. Allen got promoted by the added stress sent him into more anxiety and depression.
Always a time when Allen was suffering from some level of anxiety or depression
Wescott also found Allen has dependent personality disorder
Allen really needs other people to feel like a whole person. He relied heavily on his wife and mother.
Someone with this disorder can't function, make decisions or exist on their own
Constant feeling of abandonment and rejection, needs loved ones around
"He would fall apart when they were not physically there."
Wescott said she had six conclusions about Allen:
"He was a fragile egg," Wescott said. Allen had a long history of mental health issues.
Allen was not faking or exaggerating his mental health issues.
Allen had clear cognitive decline. Wescott said his thinking was slowed down, his problem-solving was low and Allen was stuck in a loop thinking over the same things.
Allen had a clear distinction of decline in mental and physical health within four months of arriving at Westville. Wescott included psychosis in this, including hallucinations and delusions and "false beliefs about things that aren't true." The judge told the jury this was "not substantive evidence."
Wescott diagnosed Allen with major depressive disorder (MDD).
Wescott said that MDD and high levels of stress can cause psychosis.
A letter that Allen wrote on Nov. 9, 2022 was entered as evidence. The state objected. The defense said the goal of showing the letter was to show the jury Allen's thought process, not to share the contents of what he said. The judge allowed a redacted version of the letter.
"You can see their thought process," Wescott said of psychosis patients. She said the integrity of sentences was what she was looking for.
Wescott said she compared the Nov. 9, 2022 letter to Allen's confession letter in the spring of 2023. Wescott said the letter structures were different and that the thoughts were fragmented in the 2023 confession. Wescott said there was no grammar or punctuation. Wescott said Allen even signed the letter differently.
The defense attempted to enter a clinical MCMI test that was administered to Allen. The state objected that they did not get a detailed copy, only a summary. The defense said the state didn't take the time to depose Wescott in the last 18 months, and that the results were available to them for months. The defense said they asked for assessment tools and were told no. The judge sustained the objection, blocking the results.
Wescott said there was "no indication (Allen) wasn't telling the truth or not being straight forward" in her evaluation.
Wescott said Allen showed a strong fear of rejection and abandonment, and that Allen avoids conflict.
Wescott said she performed 25 different, objective tests on Allen. Wescott said they consistently indicated Allen had psychosis.
Wescott said someone is much more likely to enter psychosis when he is facing stress and/or anxiety.
Wescott said she started seeing changes between December 2022 and March 2023, with less emotional response and more mumbling.
Wescott said the most obvious latent psychosis symptoms were in April, May and June 2023.
Wescott said there was a decline in psychosis after June or July 2023.
"No indication of faking or any type of exaggeration," Wescott said.
Previous testimony from state's witnesses working at the Indiana Department of Corrections had mentioned "serious mental illness" (SMI) for Allen. Wescott said SMI is only used in prison. In clinical settings, they are called "severe mental illness" or "chronic mental illness." Wescott said Allen met those definitions before prison and while he was in prison.
Wescott said she received Dr. Monica Wala's notes. Wescott said the confession description reads like a story. Wala's notes about the confession seemed like there was a logical story with a beginning, middle and end. Wescott said she saw a discrepancy between Wala's notes and what Wescott saw in the suicide watch notes and video tape from the same day.
Wescott said that in psychosis or delirium, a person doesn't know what's real and what isn't because of changes in the brain.
The state objected, saying Allen was never diagnosed with delirium. The judge overruled the objection.
Wescott said someone put in solitary confinement for a long time with sensory deprivation can lead to delirium.
Continuing in next post.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 1:50 pm to Gris Gris
These expert witnesses getting paid by one side are a crock of shite, they’ll find whatever suits their client.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 4:10 pm to lachellie
I've been closely monitoring the trial.
Here’s how I assess the odds:
85% likelihood of a hung jury
8% likelihood of not guilty
7% likelihood of guilty
Here’s how I assess the odds:
85% likelihood of a hung jury
8% likelihood of not guilty
7% likelihood of guilty
Posted on 11/4/24 at 4:22 pm to Poichess
I think it will be hung also.
I just watched a short summary from this afternoon. Allen's daughter and sister both testified they'd never been molested by him contrary to Allen's claims. This will go toward the defense's argument that Allen said things that were not true, including the confession. I also read a summary and Allen's daughter said she didn't love him and wouldn't lie for him, though the reporter who gave the video summary said they smiled at each other.
I just watched a short summary from this afternoon. Allen's daughter and sister both testified they'd never been molested by him contrary to Allen's claims. This will go toward the defense's argument that Allen said things that were not true, including the confession. I also read a summary and Allen's daughter said she didn't love him and wouldn't lie for him, though the reporter who gave the video summary said they smiled at each other.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 4:24 pm to TheWalrus
quote:
These expert witnesses getting paid by one side are a crock of shite, they’ll find whatever suits their client.
Clearly. I’m just listening to a summary—somebody just reding the notes front today without any editorializing. To me, it sounds like the defense is doing a better job of presenting a defense for “not guilty by reason of (temporary) insanity” more than he didn’t do it. But that’s not the defense they’re arguing. They’re saying he didn’t do it. All of this is merely an (futile, imo) attempt to mitigate his confessions.
Completely disagree with POTUS. I think they are making a better case that he is a bat-shite crazy homicidal psycho completely capable of committing this crime, and it will be a unanimous “guilty” verdict and it won’t take them very long to come back with it. If this is their defense, I think they fricked up by not just pleading insanity. None of this is leading me to believe it was a different person that committed the murders. And with the defense strategy they’ve gone with, that’s all the jury has to consider. Is there reasonable doubt he did it? Imo, no. All the rest is just theatrics.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 4:27 pm to Hot Carl
quote:
If this is their defense, I think they fricked up by not just pleading insanity.
I don't think they had that option at the time. He went bonkers in jail, but he wasn't acting that way early on. I don't think they could prove he was nuts at the time the murders were committed.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 4:32 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
I don't think they had that option at the time. He went bonkers in jail, but he wasn't acting that way early on. I don't think they could prove he was nuts at the time the murders were committed.
Fair enough. But they are talking a whole lot about his mental health prior to being jailed. I think what they are presenting just speaks more to his being bat-shite crazy than him turning bat-shite crazy in jail and confessing to something he didn’t do.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 4:46 pm to Hot Carl
quote:
Fair enough. But they are talking a whole lot about his mental health prior to being jailed. I think what they are presenting just speaks more to his being bat-shite crazy than him turning bat-shite crazy in jail and confessing to something he didn’t do.
I get what you're saying, but being depressed and having anxiety as described prior his being jailed didn't reach a level of allowing a plea by reason of insanity. Sounds to me like they are saying it was exasperated by the jail conditions which likely resulted in his confessing to something he didn't do. The confessions are strong. There's no other direct evidence tying him to the murders. Even the van deal seems to be falling apart for the prosecution. It's certainly been bruised. I don't know how the jury is interpreting the testimony or the veracity of the witnesses. Right now, I think there's a strong case for a hung jury. It only takes 1 juror not to buy in the prosecution's case.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:15 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
Sounds to me like they are saying it was exasperated by the jail conditions which likely resulted in his confessing to something he didn't do.
Well, obviously that’s what they’re saying. I just don’t think it’s very compelling. If they don’t believe it’s all fake (which is a distinct possibility), I just think for every point they make towards him being crazy is stronger for him being the crazy murderer than the crazy mis-confessor.
quote:
The confessions are strong.
Very
quote:
There's no other direct evidence tying him to the murders.
There’s no other “direct evidence” tying anybody to them. The circumstantial evidence is very compelling, however. To me, at least.
quote:
Even the van deal seems to be falling apart for the prosecution.
I don’t even think that’s all that big of a deal. Van or no van, HE PLACED HIMSELF AT THE SCENE AT THE TIME WEARING THE SAME CLOTHES AS THE BRIDGE GUY.
quote:
Right now, I think there's a strong case for a hung jury. It only takes 1 juror not to buy in the prosecution's case.
Certainly a possibility. I’d predict they come back with a unanimous “guilty” in less than 6 hours, though. We’ll see.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:19 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
also read a summary and Allen's daughter said she didn't love him and wouldn't lie for him, though the reporter who gave the video summary said they smiled at each other.
This has been a point of contention this afternoon. I’ve seen one report have to be updated to say that she DOES love her father.
This post was edited on 11/4/24 at 5:23 pm
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:20 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
Allen's daughter said she didn't love him
Did she expand on this?
Is it because she thinks he did it? or were there different issues with him growing up?
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:22 pm to Hot Carl
quote:
I don’t even think that’s all that big of a deal. Van or no van, HE PLACED HIMSELF AT THE SCENE AT THE TIME WEARING THE SAME CLOTHES AS THE BRIDGE GUY.
He admitted to being there and he could be Bridge Guy and probably is, but is Bridge Guy the murderer? That's what the jury wants to know.
He called police a few days later and told them he was on the bridge. You can look at that several ways, but one way is that he wouldn't have called if he was involved. He also couldn't have known about Liberty's video on the phone. If he did, he would have taken her phone after he murdered them. I think he did it, but there's still room for reasonable doubt if you're on the jury.
Here's a summary of Weber's testimony. The jury asked quite a few questions.
At 2:48 p.m. the defense called Brad Weber. The reporter notes Weber seems “extremely disheveled.” Baldwin asks him why he was upset when they talked before. Weber says “I was upset because you were trying to tell me what I did when I got off work.”
Baldwin handed him a transcript from an FBI interview Weber did in Feb. 2017. Weber tells the jury he went on a three-day trip to Arizona and got back the Sunday before the girls died.
Baldwin asks him about his ATM machine business. Weber says he makes money off them through surcharges, he doesn’t know how many he had in 2017. He says he had 30 at one point and has 15 now.
Weber tells the jury he attended to his ATM machines daily, says he checks how much money they have and gets money from the bank. He says he doesn’t know what bank he used in 2017, he thinks it was Regions Bank.
Weber says his ATMs are at gas stations, taverns, restaurants, etc. He said he used a black Subaru to drive to service his ATMs. He says he uses Regions Bank now, but not always the same branch. He says on the day of the murders he went straight home from his other job at the Subaru plant.
Weber tells the jury that nobody from law enforcement asked him to go to a police station this past August, that they asked him to go to “a different location.” He says “it could have been Steve Mullin that called.” He says “only time I used my van was when I was pulling a trailer.”
Weber says he took a nap when he got home after work on Feb. 13, 2017, got up around 5 p.m. when someone knocked on the door.
Baldwin asks, “do trespassers come onto your property?” Weber says yes. Weber says he did not hear any screaming on that day. He says he had a home in Lafayette in 2017 and owns a trailer.
Weber tells the jury he gave law enforcement permission to go inside his house, but it was not on Feb. 13, 2017. He says his van was in the grass and the Subaru was in the driveway. Baldwin hands him a photo of his garage from Feb. 19, 2017. McLeland objects to the photo. Judge Gull admits the photo.
McLeland calls for a sidebar.
At 3:20 p.m. McLeland began his cross-examination. Weber says law enforcement stopped him on his way home a few times, probably on Feb. 17, 2017. He says someone looked through his property on Feb. 13. He confirms he talked to law enforcement on Feb. 17. He said he went straight home from work on Feb. 13, 2017.
At 3:26 p.m. the jury asked Weber questions:
Do you know if the ATMs would have photo or video of servicing? Weber says “not the actual ATMs , but some of the locations.”
How far in advance would you have to order cash for ATMs? Weber says getting cash isn’t a problem, but a week in advance.
What is the process to clock out of work? Weber says “turnstyle.”
What driveway do you use at home? Weber says, “driveway under the Monon High Bridge.”
Do you drive under the bridge, would you have taken that round on Feb. 13, 2017? Weber says yes.
Do you typically go home before servicing your ATMs? Weber says no.
LINK
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:24 pm to bikerack
This is the one I saw, though I saw another that didn't include that question at all.
Defense's 14th witness, Brittney Zapanta, Richard Allen's daughter
1:45 p.m. - The defense's 14th witness is Brittney Zapanta, Allen's daughter.
Defense attorney Jennifer Auger asked "Did your father ever molest you?"
Zapanta said no.
Auger asked "Do you love your father?"
Zapanta said no.
Auger asked "Would you lie for him?"
Zapanta said no.
State's attorney James Luttrell tried to ask if Allen went to the Monon High Bridge often. The defense objected, which was sustained.
Luttrell showed Zapanta and the jury photos of Allen. He asked if Allen's appearance changed before she went to college.
Zapanta said no.
Luttrell showed photos from 2014 through 2017 of Allen and asked if that's how Allen looked. Zapanta said they all looked like Allen in 2017.
LINK
Defense's 14th witness, Brittney Zapanta, Richard Allen's daughter
1:45 p.m. - The defense's 14th witness is Brittney Zapanta, Allen's daughter.
Defense attorney Jennifer Auger asked "Did your father ever molest you?"
Zapanta said no.
Auger asked "Do you love your father?"
Zapanta said no.
Auger asked "Would you lie for him?"
Zapanta said no.
State's attorney James Luttrell tried to ask if Allen went to the Monon High Bridge often. The defense objected, which was sustained.
Luttrell showed Zapanta and the jury photos of Allen. He asked if Allen's appearance changed before she went to college.
Zapanta said no.
Luttrell showed photos from 2014 through 2017 of Allen and asked if that's how Allen looked. Zapanta said they all looked like Allen in 2017.
LINK
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:25 pm to bikerack
quote:
I’ve seen one report have to be updated to say that she DOES love her father.
Oh, wow. The one I saw needs to be updated then.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:27 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
He admitted to being there and he could be Bridge Guy and probably is, but is Bridge Guy the murderer?
(To me), he’s 100% the Bridge Guy. I think the jury probably feels the same. Is the Bridge Guy the murderer? I could come up with a scenario that he’s not, but it would not even be close to “reasonable doubt.” For me, anyway.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 5:29 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
Baldwin hands him a photo of his garage from Feb. 19, 2017. McLeland objects to the photo. Judge Gull admits the photo.
https://x.com/CuriousLuke93x/status/1853560429940748582
quote:
• Andy Baldwin moved to submit a photo from the 2/19 search into evidence, it was admitted over state's objection, photo given to jury; Jurors became animated and talking amongst each other when they received this photo.
Its not sounding like anyone other than the jury saw the photo.
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