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re: About to put my son in drug rehab. update page 20
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:39 am to redfieldk717
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:39 am to redfieldk717
quote:
.nobody has given you a definition like that.
then what is the operative definition of an addict/alcoholic?
1
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:40 am to SlowFlowPro
So people should continue using illegal drugs until they run out of options....
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:43 am to SlowFlowPro
If you start drinking, you cannot control how much you drink and when given an honest effort to stop for any amount of time with ones own devices (abstinence) they cannot
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:43 am to vanburenboy
quote:
I would of classified myself as an addict. I was chasing losses on freaking high school and WNBA games.
i agree that you were
but the definition of the person suffering from addiction is going to be very malleable in order to exclude you
quote:
Once again I realized I was going down a dark path and couldn't continue. I just stopped.
it's called spontaneous recovery, and it's more popular and effective than AA/12 steps
the vast majority of the population have issues with addictions to particular behaviors. they recognize the problem and stop
quote:
People need to give themselves a little more credit in what they can accomplish by themselves.
i agree
this thinking violates the first 3 steps of the 12 step program, though. you can't "work the steps" by believing what you and i believe
however, like i said earlier...some people have such strong pathology that this is true. a very, very smal %, but they exist
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:43 am to redfieldk717
quote:
So people should continue using illegal drugs until they run out of options....
que?
that's a bit hyperbolic and histrionic
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:44 am to SlowFlowPro
Aa and other 12 step programs are not the only way to achieve sobriety..I know this
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:46 am to SlowFlowPro
It is both...sarcasm meter should have been 100% on your radar
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:46 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
let me emphasize something. i don't disagree that this is true for some people (and possibly you. i don't know you)
I know me. And I know this is true for me.
quote:
this is true for a very small % of the population. if you fall into this %, then i agree abstinence is probably correct
Phew. I was about to walk over to the nearest bar room and try a little controlled drinking. Again.
quote:
however, this should be a last line of resort
That is exactly what it is.
quote:
the programs i'm discussing are the first response to people who seek treatment
The program does not go to them. They go to the program. How they get there seems to be your biggest hangup.
quote:
they are extreme and should only be the last line of resort for only the minute portion of people with extreme pathologies
I just don't know how you quantify that. Just like the studies you cited don't quantify it. I do not think it is quantifiable.
I believe that most people that get a 1st offense DUI or possession charge see no benefit in mandated meeting past 2-3. I think it is good for them to be exposed to it so they can know it is an option, but requiring 3-5 meetings a week for a year? No. We know that will accomplish very little.
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:48 am to redfieldk717
quote:
If you start drinking, you cannot control how much you drink and when given an honest effort to stop for any amount of time with ones own devices (abstinence) they cannot
and people do have this problem who eventually do figure how how to live and drink without negative externalities
so either this definition will shift to exclude people who do develop other recovery options
or
this definition applies only to the most extreme levels of pathology...pathology of a completely broken person that cannot be corrected...and there is a disproportionate use of this program to the general population who is not this damaged
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:50 am to Artie Rome
quote:
The program does not go to them. They go to the program.
uh
courts order people to this program all the time, even for first offenses of misdemeanors
the government ensures that it forces people to "go to" the programs
quote:
I believe that most people that get a 1st offense DUI or possession charge see no benefit in mandated meeting past 2-3. I think it is good for them to be exposed to it so they can know it is an option, but requiring 3-5 meetings a week for a year? No. We know that will accomplish very little.
then we agree
but the rates of addiction treatment using this program that should be the "last line of resort" is like 90%+ (probably more like 95-98%)
that rate, compared to the affected population, seems to be very out of whack
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:50 am to SlowFlowPro
this definition has not shifted for 75 years
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
and people do have this problem who eventually do figure how how to live and drink without negative externalities
so either this definition will shift to exclude people who do develop other recovery options
or
this definition applies only to the most extreme levels of pathology...pathology of a completely broken person that cannot be corrected...and there is a disproportionate use of this program to the general population who is not this damaged
Do you even know what point you came in trying to make? Or what point you are trying to make now?
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:51 am to MBclass83
Did op ever give more info or is this just a pissing match?
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the government ensures that it forces people to "go to" the programs
I think I addressed that. Nonetheless, the program isn't seeking them out.
quote:
but the rates of addiction treatment using this program that should be the "last line of resort" is like 90%+ (probably more like 95-98%)
that rate, compared to the affected population, seems to be very out of whack
I'm not following here. Oh, you mean 90-95% of treatment programs are 12 step based.
As I asked like 10 pages ago...Anyone want to open a treatment center?
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
this definition applies only to the most extreme levels of pathology...pathology of a completely broken person that cannot be corrected...and there is a disproportionate use of this program to the general population who is not this damaged
so people should wait until they are completely broken to seek out help...why wait? that is the most common misconception these days, why not get help before you flush your life down the toilet?
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:55 am to Artie Rome
quote:
Do you even know what point you came in trying to make? Or what point you are trying to make now?
yes
the proliferation of the 12-step program is bad, as it provides a method that doesn't apply to the vast majority of the population and stunts the growth of more effective treatment options by killing competition (and worse, via government)
also, if we are dealing with people who are that extreme, the only steps that truly matter are abstinence and admitting you have an extreme psychological-biological defect requiring abstinence.
kind of like a person with extreme bipolar disorder or schitophrenia. you are broken and if you want to live in society, you have to live under extreme regulation (or we can take you out of society via prison or institutions)
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:56 am to wasteland
quote:
Did op ever give more info or is this just a pissing match?
Pissing match.
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:56 am to Artie Rome
quote:
I think I addressed that. Nonetheless, the program isn't seeking them out.
the cult of AA controls the government!
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:57 am to Artie Rome
quote:
Anyone want to open a treatment center?
it's one of my "things to invest in to retire on" plans once i get my money to invest in shite as an adult
Posted on 9/26/14 at 10:58 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the proliferation of the 12-step program is bad, as it provides a method that doesn't apply to the vast majority of the population and stunts the growth of more effective treatment options by killing competition
only 1 of the 12 steps has anything to do with alcohol...EVERYONE could benefit by working steps 2-12
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