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Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:11 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
During the Battle of the Somme
That battle is fascinating. It's tough to wrap your head around the crazy tactics and carnage.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:12 am to Darth_Vader
Hamas has developed a game changer...
This post was edited on 9/15/16 at 11:13 am
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:15 am to terd ferguson
Are those pics from Spanish Town?
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:15 am to upgrayedd
quote:
That turret has a massive profile.
Indeed it does. Which that's another radical departure from traditional Soviet designs when it comes to the T-14. Really since the T-64, the Russians have minimized the turret profile of their tanks as much as possible. You can see how with each successive tank, Soviet turrets kept on shrinking since WWII....
T-55
T-62
T-64
T-72
T-80
T-90
The T-14 totally breaks away from their old thinking on turret design.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:17 am to Darth_Vader
For those that like history, especially military history, and want to know more about the Great War, WWI. I suggest you listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, Blueprint for Armageddon. He is long winded, and it's a multi-part series where each part is around 3-4 hours long, but he really paints a great picture for the war.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:19 am to Emiliooo
quote:
For those that like history, especially military history, and want to know more about the Great War, WWI. I suggest you listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, Blueprint for Armageddon. He is long winded, and it's a multi-part series where each part is around 3-4 hours long, but he really paints a great picture for the war.
Very true. Pretty much all his podcasts are very good.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:20 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
The T-14 totally breaks away from their old thinking on turret design.
So what do you think is the rationale behind that design decision? Can they get away with it as long as they stack a shitload of reactive armor over it?
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:20 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
The T-14 totally breaks away from their old thinking on turret design.
quote:
Featuring a number of innovative characteristics, the T-14 represents a new generation of Russian main battle tanks. The most significant new feature is the use of an unmanned turret, with the crew of three seated in an armored capsule in the front of the hull.
This post was edited on 9/15/16 at 11:21 am
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:32 am to upgrayedd
quote:
That turret has a massive profile.
BTW, when it comes to being worried about massive turret profile, the US and our NATO allies have never really worried that much about it
Some examples....
American M48 (This individual M48 is actually from the German Army)
American M60A3
American M1 Abrams
German Leopard I
German Leopard II
British Chieftain
British Challenger
French AMX-30
French Leclerc
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:37 am to upgrayedd
quote:
So what do you think is the rationale behind that design decision? Can they get away with it as long as they stack a shitload of reactive armor over it?
Well, really you've got to add extra armor with the added height of the turret. That's the trade off the Soviets/Russians had with their older MBT's, they traded off heavy armor protection in exchange for a lighter tank with a lower silhouette.
The thing that's interesting about the T-14 though is you don't have any crew members in the turret, they're all concentrated low in the front hull. But even here you're seeing a trade-off. You've lessened the threat of losing crew members to a hit on the turret. But you're also raising the possibility of losing more, or even all, of the crew to things like IED's or anti-tank mines.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:40 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
Well, really you've got to add extra armor with the added height of the turret. That's the trade off the Soviets/Russians had with their older MBT's, they traded off heavy armor protection in exchange for a lighter tank with a lower silhouette.
Looks like it's still 2/3's the weight of an Abrams.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:48 am to upgrayedd
quote:
Looks like it's still 2/3's the weight of an Abrams
Yeah, it's still a good deal smaller. The amount of armor on the Abrams is truly amazing. Look at this picture for an idea of what I'm talking about....
(Yes, I know this is a model. But it's to scale so it gets the point across)
Do you see the "doghouse" box on top of the turret right in front of the guy standing up outside the TC's hatch? That box is the gunner's main sights for the main gun and coax machine gun. The front of that sight buts against the front edge of the interior turret wall. Thus, the front of that "doghouse" is about where the front of the inside of the turret wall is. Now notice how far back from the front edge of the turret that box is sitting. Yes, there are small spaces in the frontal turret armor, but most of that area between the front of the turret and the doghouse is freaking armor. And not just any armor. It's a substance called Chobham armour.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 11:57 am to Darth_Vader
Wow, that is a lot of armor.
So who do you think has the best tank currently?
So who do you think has the best tank currently?
Posted on 9/15/16 at 12:00 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
The thing that's interesting about the T-14 though is you don't have any crew members in the turret, they're all concentrated low in the front hull.
Research provided by terd ferguson
Posted on 9/15/16 at 12:03 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
So who do you think has the best tank currently?
Hate to say it..... but those damn Germans.
It's close when it comes to which is best between the German Leopard II, British Challenger II, and our M1A2 Abrams. But if push came to shove, I'd give the Leo II a slight edge of them all. And a big part of why I say that is we have spent the last 15 or so years training our armored forced to fight low intensity counter-insurgency wars with little to no stressing of armored warfare.
Sad to say but our tankers of today are just not anywhere near as proficient as we were back in my day. I say that based on talks with guys I know who are still involved in the Armor school from back in my day. And I'm not blaming the tankers of today themselves. They are not the ones who choose how they get to train.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 12:05 pm to terd ferguson
quote:
Research provided by terd ferguson
From one of my posts on page 1......
quote:
The T-14 is the first major departure of old Soviet tank design since the introduction of the T-55. It's a pretty radical design in that it concentrates the crew all in the lower hull.
From what I understand an emphasis has been placed on crew survivability with the T-14 which for the Russians is totally different than their tank design doctrine going back to before WWII. The Russians have always concentrated on building simple to maintain, tough, reliable tanks with a massive gun that can be built in massive quantities. Their tanks for decades have tended to be lighter than Western tanks but usually with a bigger, more powerful gun.
The T-14 maintains the big gun but along with that also has strong armor, advanced fire control, ATGM countermeasures, and overall looks to be a potent MBT.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 12:09 pm to Darth_Vader
Yeah but nobody reads all that shite. I posted pictures.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 12:10 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Sad to say but our tankers of today are just not anywhere near as proficient as we were back in my day. I say that based on talks with guys I know who are still involved in the Armor school from back in my day. And I'm not blaming the tankers of today themselves. They are not the ones who choose how they get to train.
Yeah, I posted that article about the US crews not even placing in the tank competition a few months back, but outside of the tank crews, do the Germans still have the better tank?
Also, I like how they still use the MG42 variant machine guns.
Posted on 9/15/16 at 12:18 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
Yeah, I posted that article about the US crews not even placing in the tank competition a few months back,
Yeah, I remember that. Seems like our guys came in behind even a Polish team.
quote:
but outside of the tank crews, do the Germans still have the better tank?
When it comes to the most up to date versions of the Leopard, Abrams, and Challenger, you're re really just splitting hairs when it comes to which tank is best. The differences between them all is very miniscule. In fact, all three tanks have so much in common they could be considered glorified redesigns of one another. But, if pressed, I'd have to give a VERY slight edge to the German's Leopard II due to it's updated armor package and fire control systems. Even back to the late 80's when I was on the M1A1 and the Germans were using the early versions of the Leo II, it's always tends to be a little bit more accurate at long distances than the Abrams. The difference is not a lot, but there is a difference.
One thing I will say though, when it comes to comparisons between these tanks and the Russian T-90 (the current Russian MBT seen in substantial numbers), all three are heads and shoulders above the T-90. Now that's not to say they're invulnerable to the T-90 in the same way my M1A1 was invulnerable to Iraqi T-72's back in 91. The T-90 can kill any tank in the world, including an Abrams, Leo II or Challenger. It would just go into any battle with any of them with some pretty big disadvantages.
quote:
Also, I like how they still use the MG42 variant machine guns.
Hell, it's one of the best MG designs the world has ever seen. And it's not like we don't have an antique MG on our tanks....
The M2 .50 cal we use on the Abrams was already 10 years old when the MG42 entered the scene.
This post was edited on 9/15/16 at 12:21 pm
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