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Message
re: Hypothetical: does versatility in college equal versatility in the NFL?
Posted on 4/27/13 at 2:45 am to LSUFreek
Posted on 4/27/13 at 2:45 am to LSUFreek
quote:and because of the 8 yards you believed he recieved while being covered by KV, this is evidence that he "shut him down" and that the whole game they tried to get the ball to tavon austin but kenny vaccaro was on him the whole time, patted down several passes, and made TA a non factor. which clearly explains why KV had zero passed defended in that game and TA had 100 yards recieving.
But pretend that Lenny was up to the task, and shut Levon down.
quote:now you're either bordering on delusion, didn't watch the game, or both. why would one wr, (who had 10 catches and 100 yards recieving) who was according to you "shut down" cause the qb to be totally lost and hold on to the ball too long? They apparently only have one WR at WVU, and no running game whatsoever? if you watched the game, and not the highlights, you'd know UT's dline dominated wvu start to finish, which lowered EVERY offensive players stats for the game.
Pretend that Lenny's blanketing directly impacted Levon's QB holding into the ball too long waiting for Levon to get open and it directly resulted in two sack-fumbles and at least two punts.
quote:
Then imagine asking knowledgeable football fans on a message board used to trolling if they have serious concerns about his cover skills translating to NFL receivers "significantly faster" than Lenny.
How bout I ask a different question. Find a pass intended for TA while being covered by KV that was catchable but successfully defended by KV. just one.
response coming btw. with, by my count so far, 19 different plays in that game more than supportive to me argument. and only from the highlight videos!
This post was edited on 4/27/13 at 2:49 am
2
Posted on 4/27/13 at 3:01 am to el duderino III
quote:
How bout I ask a different question. Find a pass intended for TA while being covered by KV that was catchable but successfully defended by KV. just one.
LOL. Just delete your whole uninformed post above me.
I answered all your questions with evidence before you even presented your bullshite challenge.
Now get off Saints Talk and go re-watch the game... this time with your eyes open.
.
This post was edited on 4/27/13 at 3:05 am
Posted on 4/27/13 at 3:04 am to el duderino III
He covered him one on one 15 times and he got open only once or twice in those spots.
That says to me KV's coverage was so good that the QB was scared/smart enough to not throw it his way. If the QB is not throwing towards Vacarro he will not get chances to bat the ball or pick it.
Everything you try to bring up as a complaint is actually a compliment.
That says to me KV's coverage was so good that the QB was scared/smart enough to not throw it his way. If the QB is not throwing towards Vacarro he will not get chances to bat the ball or pick it.
Everything you try to bring up as a complaint is actually a compliment.
This post was edited on 4/27/13 at 3:05 am
Posted on 4/27/13 at 3:12 am to bonethug0108
quote:no, they gameplanned around KV from the start. i dont have time to look for examples through the entire game, but there were more than enough in the highlight reels for texas and for WV.
That says to me KV's coverage was so good that the QB was scared/smart enough to not throw it his way. If the QB is not throwing towards Vacarro he will not get chances to bat the ball or pick it.
i'm lining them up right now, give me about ten minutes.
Posted on 4/27/13 at 3:32 am to el duderino III
quote:Again, your dumbass saying this is a compliment to KV.
no, they gameplanned around KV from the start.
And again, he had Austin one on one 15 times so it's not like they didn't match up at all.
Hell just read this:
LINK
"Vaccaro had responsibility in some form of coverage on Austin on 26 of Smith’s throws, but Austin’s production on those plays was minimal. Six of these plays were attempts with Vaccaro in shallow zone coverage. On those plays Austin had 21 yards on two catches –- and the longest came after he left the free safety’s zone. Austin was open four times and only once was this in Vaccaro’s area. On that play, the safety made the tackle.
What’s far more impressive is the number of times Vaccaro faced Austin in single coverage. The safety had Austin one-on-one on 18 pass plays; only three times did Vaccaro receive help from an additional defender in bracket coverage. The other 15 times Vaccaro covered Austin heads-up.
On those snaps in man coverage, I only saw Austin come open once; catching an out in the fourth quarter on third-and-11 for eight yards. Vaccaro made the tackle to prevent the first down. The remaining 14 times Vaccaro covered the slot receiver, Austin was only targeted three times. One of these plays was a crossing route where Vaccaro didn’t bite on Austin’s double move and forced Smith to throw the ball wide of the target. Smith was sacked five times and lost two fumbles on plays where Vaccaro had man coverage on Austin.
When the first half was over, West Virgina knew it had to work away from Vaccaro and they began using shovel passes where they motioned Austin towards the formation. The Texas safety still had responsibility for Austin on both of these "targets," tackling Austin after an eight-yard gain on one. The other resulted in a four-yard loss thanks to the defensive line. The rest of the attempts Austin received were on routes where the offense targeted him away from Vaccaro’s zone.
Excluding these shovel passes behind the line of scrimmage, Vaccaro neutralized one of the most dangerous slot receivers in the college game. He may still take bad angles to the ball carrier, get too reckless with his play, and have difficulty shedding blockers, but this quarterback of the defense is going to make an NFL team happy come April. "
Posted on 4/27/13 at 3:37 am to el duderino III
Lets just say that some guy on this board, lets call him 'smell scruderino,' is a friggin d-bag
Posted on 4/27/13 at 3:57 am to el duderino III
point a) texas dline dominated WVU's from start to finish. geno smith was under pressure constantly, so tryin to attribute depreciated reciever numbers is absolute nonsense when you actually watch the game film.
point b) if there is a wide descrepency between your opponents 1st and 2nd best db, an they man up to your 1st and 2nd best wr's, do you target them equally? no, you target the one you have a talent advantage over. In the ut wvu game, the consistently used TA as a decoy to get him out of the box or away from the play. so once again, claiming he "held" him to 8 yards is misleading at best (and it was 40 anyways)
lets start with WV's highlight nin that game
-0:30 collapsed pocket in about 1 second, nothing to do with "coverage since he still completed the pass to TA with KV right there (though in fairness he may not have been on TA)
-0:47 bad angle/missed arm tackle.
-1:06 TA on other side w/KV - completely intended for bailey
-1:35 they got TA matched up against a 3rd string db, but KV still took a bad angle. (also, if most of his yards, and targets were while not being covered by KV, how is he holding him to 40 yards "shutting him down"
-2:07 fake speed sweep to austin to get KV out of the box (using someone as a decoy does not mean they're being "shut down"
-2:25 - KV easily beaten by TA for 12 yards
-2:28 - again using KV being manned up on TA to simply remove him from the running game by hitting the opposite side of the field (nothing to do with KV "shutting down" TA
-2:35 - same exact thing. TA just runs a go route as a decoy to keep KV out of the box, touchdown
-3:05 - terrible. doesn't maintain gap responsibility, runs around the blocker instead of taking him on, gives up 30 yards instead of 5
-3:20 -again TA on opposite side of the field purely as a decoy to keep KV there
-3:25 - either he had deep middle or third, and that was his responsibility, or he was on TA and they used a deep out as another decoy to get KV out of the center of the field. either one supports my argument.
I'm going to bed, ill post the rest later. But the point is, you guys keep trying to argue that KV shut down tavon austin. Not only is TZ incredibly small and thus easier to jam at the line, but when WV wanted to get the ball to TA, they did. The rest of the time, they used KV being matched up man to man with him specifically to take advantage of the rest of texas's horrendous defense, and neutralize KV against the run. in no way shape or form does that game show KV locking down tavo austin
point b) if there is a wide descrepency between your opponents 1st and 2nd best db, an they man up to your 1st and 2nd best wr's, do you target them equally? no, you target the one you have a talent advantage over. In the ut wvu game, the consistently used TA as a decoy to get him out of the box or away from the play. so once again, claiming he "held" him to 8 yards is misleading at best (and it was 40 anyways)
lets start with WV's highlight nin that game
-0:30 collapsed pocket in about 1 second, nothing to do with "coverage since he still completed the pass to TA with KV right there (though in fairness he may not have been on TA)
-0:47 bad angle/missed arm tackle.
-1:06 TA on other side w/KV - completely intended for bailey
-1:35 they got TA matched up against a 3rd string db, but KV still took a bad angle. (also, if most of his yards, and targets were while not being covered by KV, how is he holding him to 40 yards "shutting him down"
-2:07 fake speed sweep to austin to get KV out of the box (using someone as a decoy does not mean they're being "shut down"
-2:25 - KV easily beaten by TA for 12 yards
-2:28 - again using KV being manned up on TA to simply remove him from the running game by hitting the opposite side of the field (nothing to do with KV "shutting down" TA
-2:35 - same exact thing. TA just runs a go route as a decoy to keep KV out of the box, touchdown
-3:05 - terrible. doesn't maintain gap responsibility, runs around the blocker instead of taking him on, gives up 30 yards instead of 5
-3:20 -again TA on opposite side of the field purely as a decoy to keep KV there
-3:25 - either he had deep middle or third, and that was his responsibility, or he was on TA and they used a deep out as another decoy to get KV out of the center of the field. either one supports my argument.
I'm going to bed, ill post the rest later. But the point is, you guys keep trying to argue that KV shut down tavon austin. Not only is TZ incredibly small and thus easier to jam at the line, but when WV wanted to get the ball to TA, they did. The rest of the time, they used KV being matched up man to man with him specifically to take advantage of the rest of texas's horrendous defense, and neutralize KV against the run. in no way shape or form does that game show KV locking down tavo austin
Posted on 4/27/13 at 4:22 am to bonethug0108
quote:if the rest of the defense was good, then yes it would be. Except the rest of the defense was fricking garbage. Thus, they use the one player KV will be matched up on as a decoy, and use the rest of their offense to win the game. therefore, saying a player being used as a decoy was "shut down" by another player is fricking moronic. what part of that do you not understand?
Again, your dumbass saying this is a compliment to KV.
quote:is he talking about this play at 2:20?because TV beat him easily and it went for the first.
On those snaps in man coverage, I only saw Austin come open once; catching an out in the fourth quarter on third-and-11 for eight yards.
quote:
The remaining 14 times Vaccaro covered the slot receiver, Austin was only targeted three times. (if you dont understand why this in no way means KV's coverage was that actual reason for the lack of targets, then I cannot help you)One of these plays was a crossing route where Vaccaro didn’t bite on Austin’s double move and forced Smith to throw the ball wide of the target. Smith was sacked five times and lost two fumbles on plays where Vaccaro had man coverage on Austin. (once again, the author seems to imply the vaccaro's single handedly amazing coverage resulted in five sacks. WATCH THE frickING FILM AND QUIT POSTING ARTICLES. half the fricking game smith was under pressure, or even already sacked within A SECOND of the ball being snapped, but oh yeah, they were coverage sacks
When the first half was over, West Virgina knew it had to work away from Vaccaro and they began using shovel passes where they motioned Austin towards the formation. The Texas safety still had responsibility for Austin on both of these "targets," tackling Austin after an eight-yard gain on one. The other resulted in a four-yard loss thanks to the defensive line. The rest of the attempts Austin received were on routes where the offense targeted him away from Vaccaro’s zone.
much of this i agree with, but again, trying to use TA's receiving stats as evidence that KV was "shutting him down" the whole game is absurdly misleading.
and here's texas' highlights from that game.
LINK
I dont see a single goddamn play from KV I would consider impressive, although he does actually take a good angle on one play on TA for a change. what a do see is UT's dline destroying WVU's, which only makes db's jobs easier, and gives receivers less chances to make plays and time to get open. I'll continue tomorrow night with more outstanding examples of KV's first round worthy talent.
and once again, he's not a bad player, but taking him at 15 is fricking absurd. jones, trade down to get elam and pick up some second round picks, frick there were a ton of options better than drafting an overrated utility player with an attitude and piss poor character.
This post was edited on 4/27/13 at 4:24 am
Posted on 4/27/13 at 5:54 am to LSUFreek
quote:yezir!
LSUFreek
Posted on 4/27/13 at 7:56 am to el duderino III
quote:
el duderino III
Posted on 4/27/13 at 9:54 pm to LSUFreek
first off, I didnt see this post the first time i responded to you. second, i was a little drunk anyways. but lets go through these.
LINK
are you serious? now he gets credit for busted plays too? and while we're discussing "shooting the gap" - live by the sword, die by the sword 3:06that quickness you seem to be so impressed by cost us 25 yards that play. There's a reason we teach linebackers to take on blockers instead of running around them
geno smith is hit from behind about a second and a half after the ball is snapped, and you credit KV? you dont seem to understand the difference between a normal sack and a coverage sack.
LINK
quote:I see you didn't wait long to put your homerism on full display. Vaccarro actually covered him about as well as a db can, but your description of that play is pretty absurd. a)austin had KV (barely) beat to the inside, if it's a perfect pass it's complete b)the ball hit austin in the hands, and KV's hands were never anywhere near austin's face or the ball and c)more important than either of those, GS had to get rid of the bal after about a second and a half because he was about to be decapitated. You honestly think if smith gets ore time, austin doesnt create more space between himself and KV?
28:05 don't know if KV deflects the pass or just disrupts the vision enough for Tavon not to catch it, but KV is with him step for step and the ball is incomplete.
quote:once again, are we watching the same plays? players x and z are defenders and y is the receiver. by your logic, at the end of this play, all players are running deep, player y is deeper than player x, and player z is deeper than player y. player z is the only one close to path of the football, which hits him in the hands. Therefore, player x is given credit for the coverage n the play. makes sense.
42:25 blankets Tavon in the slot for an incomplete deep pass; Texas safety almost intercepts
quote:again, i dont know what to tell you. it should be blatantly obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge of football that austin was double teamed. it was combo man coverage with KV to the inside and thompson on the inside. the defense is basically conceding an entire player. noone outside of calvin johnson is getting the ball in such a spot. yet you describe this as KV's "blanket" coverage.
44:20 blankets Tavon in the end zone. Geno has to throw it away
quote:
50:05 beautiful shoot the gap tackle for loss; was lined up as an OLB.
are you serious? now he gets credit for busted plays too? and while we're discussing "shooting the gap" - live by the sword, die by the sword 3:06that quickness you seem to be so impressed by cost us 25 yards that play. There's a reason we teach linebackers to take on blockers instead of running around them quote:again, what?
58:12 blankets Tavon in the slot; Geno sacked/fumbles; Texas recovers ball for a TD in the endzone
geno smith is hit from behind about a second and a half after the ball is snapped, and you credit KV? you dont seem to understand the difference between a normal sack and a coverage sack. Posted on 4/27/13 at 9:55 pm to el duderino III
Dude just let it go already shite
Posted on 4/27/13 at 9:57 pm to el duderino III
I was upset about the pick on Thursday but now I'm excited to see what he can do based on all of the experts loving the pick (Skip Bayless is not an expert), but you just need to move on. It sounds like you have personal issues with the guy, you're insufferable.
Posted on 4/27/13 at 10:07 pm to LSUFreek
quote:same thing
1:04:45 blankets Tavon; Geno sacked
quote:ive seen this show before...
1:07:45 blankets Tavon; Geno sacked
quote:agree, and he is usually an excellent open field tackler, that;s not his weakness.
1:17:05 quick pass to Tavon in slot who slips cuz the pass was off, but KV was right on top of him, wouldn't have went anywhere
quote:well that was his responsibility. also - trigonomics is amazing. see my earlier comment on this play.
2:01:22 Fantastic diving tackle. Tavon goes in motion for a reverse; KV makes a big stop from the other side of the field for a short gain
quote::captainkirkfacepalm:
2:12:00 blankets Tavon; Geno looking Tavon's way; Geno arm hit; fumble; Texas ball
So this is your "evidence" that KV shut down tavon austin? because I've been watching him for four years, and was at the fricking WVU game, and I dont have too many memories of him "shutting down" anyone. He's a great safety. Has great instincts. But thinking he is worth the 15 spot because he will be magically able to play ss, fs, cb, and nb is overly optimistic to the point of delusion.
Posted on 4/27/13 at 10:10 pm to el duderino III
So how any times did KV bang your ol lady? Pull that bunch out my friend
Pull that bunch out my friend This post was edited on 4/27/13 at 10:10 pm
Posted on 4/27/13 at 10:15 pm to BarbeTiger
not really, but i got pissed when I checked back and saw freek's response just now. i cant stand being wrong, so I never really argue something unless i'm already aware of a shitload of information that leads me to believe whatever conclusion. And it feels irresponsible to let people on here get their hopes up that KV might turn into the next ed reed or something.
i'm starting to accept it though. he'll be a solid player for us for quite a few years, but he'll never be a true difference maker. There were difference makers available at 15. or we could have traded down and gone with elam. or out of the first completely. but whatever, it's done.
i'm starting to accept it though. he'll be a solid player for us for quite a few years, but he'll never be a true difference maker. There were difference makers available at 15. or we could have traded down and gone with elam. or out of the first completely. but whatever, it's done.
This post was edited on 4/27/13 at 10:16 pm
Posted on 4/27/13 at 10:39 pm to el duderino III
Who said he was going to be the next Ed Reed?
I think everyone agrees he is an upgrade at our weakest defensive position and could be a solid starter. I don't see anyone declaring him a pro bowler.
I think everyone agrees he is an upgrade at our weakest defensive position and could be a solid starter. I don't see anyone declaring him a pro bowler.
Posted on 4/27/13 at 11:01 pm to bonethug0108
quote:noone is arguing against this
I think everyone agrees he is an upgrade at our weakest defensive position and could be a solid starter.
quote:people do, and should hope for/expect greatness from top 15 picks
I don't see anyone declaring him a pro bowler.
Posted on 4/27/13 at 11:06 pm to el duderino III
quote:Let me search for a post I made elsewhere, but just know that the 15 pick dating back to 1990 has produced no current or future hall of famers and only 1 player that could be a perennial pro bowler(JPP but it's way too early to call that one).
people do, and should hope for/expect greatness from top 15 picks
You are the one blowing expectations out of proportion.
Here are the picks since 1990:
LINK
Some solid guys and some guys that went to the pro bowl once or twice, but nobody that was an elite talent throughout their career. Also a lot of busts.
This post was edited on 4/27/13 at 11:22 pm
Posted on 4/28/13 at 12:07 am to bonethug0108
quote:expectations for what? what are you arguing?
You are the one blowing expectations out of proportion.
quote:i see jason pierre-paul, brian cushing, derrick johnson, albert haynesworth...and that's only going back 11 years, and only on defense
nobody that was an elite talent throughout their career.
and again what is your point? no one is even arguing vaccaro will be a bust. people are upset that last season we gave up an absurd amount to get an overrated rb that will never be a difference maker on offense for us, and then we follow it up this year by using an even higher slot on an incredibly safe pick that will never be a difference maker on defense for us.
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