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Started By
Message
re: Beanie's foot................
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:26 pm to Midget Death Squad
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:26 pm to Midget Death Squad
quote:
The 9% who think like me believe the Saints would be making a great mistake in drafting him, because we don't need a RB, WE NEED DEFENSE.
It has nothing to do with Wells or Moreno's skill set. Right now, we have a good RB group. Maybe not great, but above average to good. On the other hand, our defense sucks arse. Now, what do you think we should focus on, improving our suck arse defense or improving our good RB's?
I can understand this thinking, but you have to remember, our defense should already be vastly improved over last year. Signing Sharper and Greer should be an immediate upgrade to our secondary, and Porter showed great signs last year that he can be a good starter in this league.
Our D Line was decimated by injuries last year and should be a strength this year.
Dan Morgan sounds like he may finally be ready to play again, which again would be an immediate upgrade.
Not to mention that bringing in Gregg Williams was the biggest acquisition the Saints have made since Drew Brees.
If you asked me this back in January I would have said we absolutely have to draft defense. But with all of our offseason moves, I don't think there is anyone that we could draft on defense that would give this team a bigger IMMEDIATE IMPACT THIS YEAR and help this team win more RIGHT NOW, which is what we need, than Beanie Wells at running back.
IMO.
This post was edited on 4/23/09 at 12:28 pm
2
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:29 pm to Midget Death Squad
Nothing against Wells, but I just don't see the need for him when we picked up a pretty good FB, and have Bell, Hamilton, Thomas, and Bush. We need defensive picks early and maybe snag another RB but not till the 4th (unless we craftily pick up a 2nd or 3rd).
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:45 pm to whodatfan
I hear ya. I just want a guy that can make an immediate impact. Not someone that we have to bring in to learn for a year or two. The time is now for the Saints, and we need players that can help us turn those close losses to Ws.
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:47 pm to BoomT
quote:
I will bet that franchise goes to a Super Bowl before the Saints.
so you're saying that they'll make it next year, and that the AFC championship will finish before the NFC championship?
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:48 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
The time is now for the Saints, and we need players that can help us turn those close losses to Ws.
by stopping the anal raping deep ball......
and converting short yardage situations....
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:51 pm to whodatfan
quote:
by stopping the anal raping deep ball......
and converting short yardage situations....
And there it is.
Posted on 4/23/09 at 12:54 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
our defense should already be vastly improved over last year
slow down with the hyperbole and overstatements. improved, yes, but not vastly. let's look at this point by point.....
quote:
Sharper and Greer should be an immediate upgrade to our secondary
This is the misconception. Greer is replacing McKenzie, so there's no "upgrade" there. Sharper, yes, he will be an upgrade, but for how long is the issue.
quote:
Porter showed great signs last year that he can be a good starter in this league.
agreed, but we still had him last year, so this isn't an "upgrade". he should improve on his play, but it's still the same position being filled.
In the current league, though, you really need 3 good CB's. This is such a pass happy league, it's basically a necessity now.
quote:
Our D Line was decimated by injuries last year and should be a strength this year.
I wouldn't say "decimated", but yes there were injuries. But these injuries happen on every team. Grant and Smith were huge dissapointments, and ellis was a rookie. The DE position and other DT could difinitely use an upgrade.
quote:
Dan Morgan sounds like he may finally be ready to play again, which again would be an immediate upgrade.
this would be a huge upgrade, but not a reliable one. I don't think he's ever played a full season, and he hasn't played ball in a few years. Plus, I like Fugita, but he's not a dominant guy. He's consistent and reliable, but not a playmaker. LB is a difinite position of need.
quote:
bringing in Gregg Williams was the biggest acquisition the Saints have made since Drew Brees
agreed, but he still needs the players
So I break it down like this...
CB - upgrade/need
S - need
OLB - need
DT - need
DE - upgrade
OT - upgrade
G - need (LG not RG)
C - need
QB - don't frick with
RB - luxery
WR - luxery
TE - upgrade
Posted on 4/23/09 at 1:16 pm to Midget Death Squad
quote:
let's look at this point by point.....
ok.
quote:
This is the misconception. Greer is replacing McKenzie, so there's no "upgrade" there. Sharper, yes, he will be an upgrade, but for how long is the issue.
McKenzie only played in 7 games last year, so yes, Greer will be an upgrade over our corner play last year. As far Sharper's longevity, we are close enough to compete for a Super Bowl RIGHT NOW. With this pick, we shouldn't be thinking about help a year or two down the road IMO, but what can put us over the top this year.
quote:
agreed, but we still had him last year, so this isn't an "upgrade". he should improve on his play, but it's still the same position being filled.
I think its an upgrade not having a rookie corner. We've seen what he can do and he'll have another offseason and training camp.
The secondary is VASTLY improved from last year IMO.
quote:
In the current league, though, you really need 3 good CB's
Agreed. I think Gay is at least a better than adequate #3 corner though.
quote:
I wouldn't say "decimated", but yes there were injuries. But these injuries happen on every team. Grant and Smith were huge dissapointments, and ellis was a rookie. The DE position and other DT could difinitely use an upgrade.
Agreed and I actually said months ago I wouldn't mind taking Jerry, but pretty much everyone on the board said that would be stupid because of how much money we already have invested at the position. I have kind of come around to agreeing with that. We've paid these guys, now they need to perform. We can't keep throwing good money after bad.
quote:
this would be a huge upgrade, but not a reliable one. I don't think he's ever played a full season, and he hasn't played ball in a few years. Plus, I like Fugita, but he's not a dominant guy. He's consistent and reliable, but not a playmaker. LB is a difinite position of need.
Agree with all of this, but would any of the USC linebackers make as big of an impact THIS YEAR as Wells would? I don't think so.
I think the Saints have a lot of the pieces in place to make a serious run this year. Wells can come in and make an already dangerous offense even better.
I don't think any defensive players we could get would be the difference between making our D a top 12-18 defense, which I think we're going to have with the additions we've made, to a top 10 defense. Just my opinion.
Again, I do think our D is already VASTLY improved. Now we need to replace the Deuce role that we've been missing and give us the ability to put games away.
We lost SEVEN games last year by less than a TD in the final minutes of a game. Wells could easily be the difference in half of those games.
This post was edited on 4/23/09 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 4/23/09 at 1:27 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Good post Voodoo. While I think Moreno will be better than Wells, I agree with your take on the defense and will expand on that.
Porter looked great, but was injured after 5 games; having him back is an upgrade over what we saw playing most of last year. Same point as Voodoo made about Greer taking over for MM who was out with injuries. CB play this year should be a lot better than what was seen on the field last year.
Same goes for the dline. Smith played with a hernia and Grant had issues. Pressley didn't see a snap I don't believe and we've added depth with Spicer & Coleman. Morgan is an 'x' factor; he could come in and add nothing, he could come in an add his old pro-bowl calibre self, or anywhere in between. Point is, we're no worse off at OLB than last year.
Every team has injuries, but you'd be hard pressed to find a team that had so many injuries to so many starters on defense for so long over the course of the season last year. Now add in a new DC with a more aggressive style and new assistant defensive coaches ( ie. losing Ed O was a good thing ) and this defense may shock some folks next year.
Porter looked great, but was injured after 5 games; having him back is an upgrade over what we saw playing most of last year. Same point as Voodoo made about Greer taking over for MM who was out with injuries. CB play this year should be a lot better than what was seen on the field last year.
Same goes for the dline. Smith played with a hernia and Grant had issues. Pressley didn't see a snap I don't believe and we've added depth with Spicer & Coleman. Morgan is an 'x' factor; he could come in and add nothing, he could come in an add his old pro-bowl calibre self, or anywhere in between. Point is, we're no worse off at OLB than last year.
Every team has injuries, but you'd be hard pressed to find a team that had so many injuries to so many starters on defense for so long over the course of the season last year. Now add in a new DC with a more aggressive style and new assistant defensive coaches ( ie. losing Ed O was a good thing ) and this defense may shock some folks next year.
Posted on 4/23/09 at 1:36 pm to RelocatedPelican
I'm not sure anyone understands what G Dub will be bringing to the table. Gibbs had a very predictable defense the last two years. A Williams D will be way more aggressive and will not leave the secondary to cover for so long. There will be more pressure on the QB. I will also predict a ProBowl for Vilma. The Dline will look alot different too. Don't forget the Rod Coleman signing. He had is best years under the new Dline coach when he was at Atlanta. If they can stay relatively healthy, I feel like the D will be much better. Williams is proven.
ETA: Sorry Pelican, I didn't read your above post. You pretty much said everything I did.
ETA: Sorry Pelican, I didn't read your above post. You pretty much said everything I did.
This post was edited on 4/23/09 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 4/23/09 at 1:38 pm to whodatfan
quote:
and converting short yardage situations.
unless Beanie is playing Oline I dont see how getting hit by a LB in the backfield is going to change...
Posted on 4/23/09 at 1:51 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Knowshon Moreno! 
Posted on 4/23/09 at 2:21 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Tiger Voodoo
basically we just have a difference in draft philosophy. I don't think you draft for immediate impact, but rather I believe in drafting a combination of need/bpa. when your pick comes, you figure out the BPA and of that group take what is a need.
Yes, RB is a position that generally yields results in rookie seasons, but that doesn't mean you select on in the first RD every year. If teams acted as short sighted as you suggest, then the Steelers, Patriots and Colts wouldn't be successful teams every year as they are. They all draft for a BPA/need rather than immediate impact.
At the moment, our RB position is a good one. Not great or superb, but good. PT is coming into his third year, and he showed last year that he has the skills to be a good RB. Our OLB is average to below average, and so is our secondary. If we pass up a guy that could be a great player on our D this year simply for the thought that he won't contribute his rookie season as a starter, then you are hamstringing your team for the future.
I don't want to be a team that mortgages the future for a win now approach; I want a team that does what it must to be in contention EVERY year.
Posted on 4/23/09 at 2:49 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Beanies's Weaknesses:
Known for his inside running, not his ability to get to the outside
Struggles with durability - some question his toughness, too
Lacks natural hands for catching
Lacks consistent effort as a blocker
Needs to improve his blitz recognition in pass protection
Lack of true breakaway speed
Known for his inside running, not his ability to get to the outside
Struggles with durability - some question his toughness, too
Lacks natural hands for catching
Lacks consistent effort as a blocker
Needs to improve his blitz recognition in pass protection
Lack of true breakaway speed
Posted on 4/23/09 at 2:57 pm to Midget Death Squad
quote:
If teams acted as short sighted as you suggest, then the Steelers, Patriots and Colts wouldn't be successful teams every year as they are.
But the Saints don't need a whole lot at this point. We have put in 3 years under Peyton building, but it is time to win NOW. He doesn't have the luxury of drafting for the future anymore.
quote:
At the moment, our RB position is a good one. Not great or superb, but good. PT is coming into his third year, and he showed last year that he has the skills to be a good RB. Our OLB is average to below average, and so is our secondary. If we pass up a guy that could be a great player on our D this year simply for the thought that he won't contribute his rookie season as a starter, then you are hamstringing your team for the future.
Overall I agree. But that's just the tough spot we, and Payton, are in right now. We can't underacheive for a 3rd year in a row.
quote:
Known for his inside running, not his ability to get to the outside
That is exactly what the Saints need.
Posted on 4/23/09 at 3:08 pm to Midget Death Squad
quote:( cue Jim Carrey impersonation ) Rrrrreeaaaallly?
Yes, RB is a position that generally yields results in rookie seasons, but that doesn't mean you select on in the first RD every year. If teams acted as short sighted as you suggest, then the Steelers, Patriots and Colts wouldn't be successful teams every year as they are. They all draft for a BPA/need rather than immediate impact.
I'm not advocating taking a RB every year ( last one we took wasn't a RB anyhow ), but I will dispute your premise quoted above. In 2005, the three teams you listed had on roster:
Pats: Dillon, Faulk
Colts: E James, Rhodes
Steelers: Randle-El, Ward, Washington
In the 2006 draft, 1st round:
Pats: Maroney
Colts: Addai
Steelers: S Holmes
Before the 2006 season, E James & Randle-El were sent packing.
Are you saying those three guys were for areas of 'need' with the guys they had on the roster in 2005? Are you saying they were the BPA in that draft at that pick? Btw, all three saw significant playing time their first year ( 13 games for Maroney, 16 for Addai, 16 for Holmes ).
Seems those teams did exactly what you disagree with; took players in the first to play right now & impact the team immediately. If anything else, it looks like the Colts & Steelers let guys go to draft potentially better guys, and if that's the case - since you want to follow their example - should the Saints send PT off somewhere and take a RB instead?
Basically, your example contradicted your stance. Besides that, many folks would disagree with you about the secondary post free agency signings & players returning to health, but OLB is probably the weakest point on the defense. That said, it goes back to what myself and others have said for a while now, and what your example actually showed good teams doing - compare draft players to needs & impact on your team and make the best pick available.
'Good' is never good enough; teams want to get better, and taking an OLB to maybe produce 2-3 years down the road to upgrade an average to below average OLB corp isn't as valuable as taking a RB that can impact the team immediately in a below average RB group. Take the RB - its what the Pats, Colts, and Steelers would do.
Posted on 4/23/09 at 3:12 pm to Bad Cat
quote:
Struggles with durability
He was the feature back at OSU, if the Saints draft him, he would be part of a 3 RB attack, limiting wear and tear and reducing the likelihood of injuries. I'm still hoping we can trade down with someone towards the bottom of the first round and pick up a 2 and a 3 and draft
1. O-line
2. Safety (Rashad Johnson from Bama or William Moore from Missouri)
3. Rashad Jennings
Posted on 4/23/09 at 5:01 pm to RelocatedPelican
quote:
Pats: Dillon, Faulk
Where's Dillon now? Oh, I see. You think since the Pats looked into the FUTURE and planned for the FUTURE by drafting a RB to replace the guy that had 2006 as his last year is the same as the Saints situation?
quote:
E James, Rhodes
James was in ARI the 2006 season; therefore, Addai was a need pick
quote:
Randle-El, Ward, Washington
:sigh: Randle-El was in Washington for 2006, and Nate W was never a top WR for Pitt.
so, let's revisit your silly little post...
Pats: Maroney - need
Colts: Addai - need
Steelers: S Holmes - need and BPA.
quote:
it looks like the Colts & Steelers let guys go to draft potentially better guys
Randle-El was a FA that was given a fat contract by Wash, and Edge was let go by Indi long before the draft.
James signed a four-year, $30 million deal with the Cardinals on March 12, 2006.
quote:
Basically, your example contradicted your stance
your example was illogically mundane. it has nothing to do with my position
RelPel, you're arguments hold about as much water as a collindar. Keep on posting your baseless arguments in your condescending way, because I truly enjoy exposing you for the simpleton you are.
( cue Jim Carrey impersonation ) Rrrrreeaaaallly,
You really should be embarrassed by that dumb arse post you just made, and if you weren't, then you should feel even more pathetic with my pointing out to you how not supporting of your argument they really were.
As a side note, who did Pitt draft last year? Oh, that's right, Mendenhall, a RB. You know why? Not because of need, but due to him falling to that point and being the BPA and a steal at 23. 2nd rd? Well, they took Sweed, the WR from Texas who was supposed to be a 1st rd pick. You see, the great teams don't draft for immediate gratification; but rather, they use the draft to pick the BPA and keep their roster top notch for years to come.
Wells and Moreno would be a reach at 14, and there are BPA at that spot. Sorry dude, but you.....
Posted on 4/23/09 at 5:15 pm to Midget Death Squad
quote:
Steelers: S Holmes - need and BPA
steelers traded up to target holmes I believe.
Posted on 4/23/09 at 5:22 pm to TortiousTiger
quote:
steelers traded up to target holmes I believe.
yup. with the Giants. They did this because it was a need pick and a BPA. He was slipping and not going to be there at 32 when they were set to pick.
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