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1
Posted on 1/27/10 at 11:31 pm to mattz1122
quote:--yes
Marino
Manning
Montana
Elway
Unitas
quote:--arguable (I'd add Staubach and Starr to this group)
Brady
Favre
Young
quote:--No.
Bradshaw
Plus you questioned whether he is even HOF-worthy. There are 23 moderen-era QBs in the HOF. If you think he ranks 10-12, how could you question if he belongs?
Posted on 1/27/10 at 11:36 pm to Jamohn
quote:
MVPs are almost as silly a measure of greatness as Superbowl wins. All they measure is perception.
Look up Favre's stats from about '95-'00 and get back to me.
quote:
Same perception that kept Moon out of the league for 6 years b/c of his race.
That's silly. And I'm not exactly Mister Conservative.
quote:
One of Favre's MVPs was shared w/ Barry Sanders when he rushed for over 2,000 yds and averaged 6 ypc. That was bullshite.
He threw for 3867 yards and 35 TD passes. Sanders had 2000 yards and 11 TDs. Perhaps Sanders deserved it, fine. But Favre had a better season that year than Moon had in all but one season.
quote:
He was under-appreciated b/c he, not Marino or Elway, was the one who spent his career carrying crappy teams.
He didn't play on crappy teams.
He played behind awesome offensive lines with Matthews and Munchak. He had some very good receivers like Givens and Jeffires. He had some good defenses behind him, especially when Buddy Ryan was there. The Oilers had some very talented teams. Come on. quote:
Remember what happened to the Oilers when they let Moon go?
I'm from Houston. I know what happened. They eventually fired the entire staff and completely rebuilt the entire team. It wasn't just Moon who left.
This post was edited on 1/27/10 at 11:46 pm
Posted on 1/27/10 at 11:38 pm to jnalivestrong
quote:
No way Steve Young would be ahead of Moon.
There is absolutely no doubt that Young should be ahead of Moon.
Posted on 1/27/10 at 11:40 pm to Jamohn
quote:
Plus you questioned whether he is even HOF-worthy. There are 23 moderen-era QBs in the HOF. If you think he ranks 10-12, how could you question if he belongs?
I'm being generous with 10-12. Comparing him apples to apples with QBs in his era, he's not a great QB. Starr, Bradshaw, and Unitas were great QBs in their era.
Posted on 1/27/10 at 11:50 pm to mattz1122
You're making these arguments and you're from Houston? Blasphemy!!
But Moon's receivers: Slaughter, Jeffries, Givens, Hill, etc. were terrible w/o him. The best back he ever played with was Lorenzo White. Buddy Ryan was in Houston for 1 year. And you can't cherry pick Favre's best years and ignore the fact that he was decidedly mediocre in other parts of his supposed prime, just as likely to throw a back-breaking INT as a game-winning TD.
And do you really think it's silly to say that Moon was kept out of the league in the beginning b/c of his race??
But Moon's receivers: Slaughter, Jeffries, Givens, Hill, etc. were terrible w/o him. The best back he ever played with was Lorenzo White. Buddy Ryan was in Houston for 1 year. And you can't cherry pick Favre's best years and ignore the fact that he was decidedly mediocre in other parts of his supposed prime, just as likely to throw a back-breaking INT as a game-winning TD.
And do you really think it's silly to say that Moon was kept out of the league in the beginning b/c of his race??
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:02 am to Jamohn
quote:
But Moon's receivers: Slaughter, Jeffries, Givens, Hill, etc. were terrible w/o him.
Slaughter was a good receiver before he came to Houston. All of those receivers were around 30 by the time he left. Matthews and Munchak are all-time great o-linemen. Even still, I'm not denying that Moon made the offense go.
The defense had players like Bubba McDowell, Cris Dishman, Marcus Robertson, Ray Childress, Sean Jones, William Fuller and Al Smith.
quote:
And you can't cherry pick Favre's best years and ignore the fact that he was decidedly mediocre in other parts of his supposed prime, just as likely to throw a back-breaking INT as a game-winning TD.
But you guys are cherry picking his stats from the 2000s and comparing them to Moon's career stats, while ignoring how great Favre was from the mid to late '90s. I'm not sure ANY QB has been as good as Favre was during that time period.
quote:
And do you really think it's silly to say that Moon was kept out of the league in the beginning b/c of his race??
What's the basis of this speculation?
This post was edited on 1/28/10 at 12:03 am
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:08 am to mattz1122
It's pretty common knowledge that NFL scouts were skeptical that a black man could play quarterback in the NFL and were also reticent to draft one b/c of the potential backlash from their fanbases. Moon was advised to switch to Tight End if he wanted to play in the NFL. That's when he went to the CFL. Is this really the first you're hearing of this?
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:10 am to Jamohn
But scouts from the late '70s and early '80s don't vote for the Hall.
Moon retired in 2000. He was inducted into the Hall in 2006. When did the racial blackballing occur?
Moon retired in 2000. He was inducted into the Hall in 2006. When did the racial blackballing occur?
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:14 am to mattz1122
I wasn't talking about racial blackballing to get into the hall. I was talking about racial blackballing that kept him out of the NFL for 6 years during which he would've amassed stats that, added to his current NFL stats, would have him in Favre's position atop the all-time leaderboards. I never said anything about HOF voting being affected by his race.
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:18 am to Jamohn
My bad. I misread. Yeah, I agree that he would've had some awesome all-time totals because of his longevity. I doubt that it automatically means that he'd be an all-time great.
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:26 am to mattz1122
All Time Top 10 IMO:
1.P.Manning (if he continues on current path)
2.J.Unitas
3.F.Tarkenton
4.J.Montana
5.B.Favre
6.D.Marino
7.W.Moon (could be higher if not for 6 seasons in CFL)
8.R.Staubach (could be higher if not for 5 years of military service)
9.B.Starr
10.J.Elway
1.P.Manning (if he continues on current path)
2.J.Unitas
3.F.Tarkenton
4.J.Montana
5.B.Favre
6.D.Marino
7.W.Moon (could be higher if not for 6 seasons in CFL)
8.R.Staubach (could be higher if not for 5 years of military service)
9.B.Starr
10.J.Elway
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:29 am to mattz1122
But aren't Favre's awesome all-time totals, which he amassed through his longevity and sporadic excellence the reason why he's considered an all time great?
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:34 am to Jamohn
Sure, but that's not my argument as to why he's better than Moon. Favre's sporadic excellence (mid to late '90s) was greater than Moon's best (early '90s, '95).
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:52 am to mattz1122
I can respect that. Favre's peak was better than Moon's peak. I think Moon's sustained excellence coupled w/ what could have been had he had those six years move him not necessarily above Favre, who waited until the age of 40 to learn to read defenses, but about equal.
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:57 am to dukke v
quote:
How many SB's did he get to??? How many did Marino
So, Big Ben is better than Brees and as good as Peyton Manning?
Elways was great, top 10 of all time, but I think he is vastly overrated. And not saying his teams were great, but the "his teams were sooo terrible" stuff is overstated.
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:58 am to msukb79
1. Elway
2. Manning
3. Montana
2. Manning
3. Montana
Posted on 1/28/10 at 12:59 am to jnalivestrong
quote:
1.P.Manning (if he continues on current path)
2.J.Unitas
3.F.Tarkenton
4.J.Montana
5.B.Favre
6.D.Marino
7.W.Moon (could be higher if not for 6 seasons in CFL)
8.R.Staubach (could be higher if not for 5 years of military service)
9.B.Starr
10.J.Elway
That's probably the worst top 10 QB ranking I've ever seen. You should not be allowed to post on MSB.
Posted on 1/28/10 at 1:01 am to AlejandroInHouston
quote:
1. Elway
With your top 3 you have room to talk. Look at some stats and try again.
This post was edited on 1/28/10 at 1:03 am
Posted on 1/28/10 at 1:03 am to jnalivestrong
Dan Reeves was kryptonite to Elway's stats.
Most conservative coach in NFL history.
If Elway played under Shanahan (or even Wade) his whole career he'd basically own every NFL passing record.
Elway still won't speak to Reeves to this day. He realizes how much Reeves fricked up his prime years.
Most conservative coach in NFL history.
If Elway played under Shanahan (or even Wade) his whole career he'd basically own every NFL passing record.
Elway still won't speak to Reeves to this day. He realizes how much Reeves fricked up his prime years.
This post was edited on 1/28/10 at 1:04 am
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