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re: Does Everybody Now Agree that Serena is the Best Ever?
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:36 pm to bobbyray21
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:36 pm to bobbyray21
Video evidence.
A 17 year old Serena up against Graf at Indian Wells in 1999. Now before you say Graf was washed up, she wasn't. She would win the French Open a few months later.
Serena was 21st in the world. Serena won this match decisively.
Serena v. Steffi, 1999 IW
A 17 year old Serena up against Graf at Indian Wells in 1999. Now before you say Graf was washed up, she wasn't. She would win the French Open a few months later.
Serena was 21st in the world. Serena won this match decisively.
Serena v. Steffi, 1999 IW
3
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:43 pm to bobbyray21
This is like your Floyd Mayweather thread. Modern athletes seem better. Changes in training and changes in equipment really help players appear to be better than players of the past.
You have to be able to translate how players of the past would perform with the same benefits players currently receive. I do not think you can question the work ethic of past players like King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf. Combine that work ethic with the training and equipment available today and I believe you would have players that could play at the same level as Serena.
Try to think how Serena would play have to use a wooden racket with a small head as Evert or KIng used in their prime. Her game would be completely different having less power and more precision.
She is currently the best player, one of the best all time, but I would not say best ever.
You have to be able to translate how players of the past would perform with the same benefits players currently receive. I do not think you can question the work ethic of past players like King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf. Combine that work ethic with the training and equipment available today and I believe you would have players that could play at the same level as Serena.
Try to think how Serena would play have to use a wooden racket with a small head as Evert or KIng used in their prime. Her game would be completely different having less power and more precision.
She is currently the best player, one of the best all time, but I would not say best ever.
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:48 pm to bobbyray21
That video is not real. Steffi is the goat. End of story haha. Anyways because Serena beat Steffi on a hard court in California she is the goat? No.
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:50 pm to bobbyray21
quote:7-5 in the third is decisively?
Serena won this match decisively
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:51 pm to Ysebaert
And before you ask no I did not stab Seles haha.
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:51 pm to bobbyray21
I would not call a 3 set, 7-5 in the 3rd decisive. She also beat Serena that same year and retired in '99 prior to the US Open. Weak evidence.
Posted on 5/15/13 at 11:56 pm to ptra
They played only twice both toward's the end of Graf's career. Ironically Graf won the other match 7-5 in the third. A tally of games won between the two matches sums with Graf by one. Case closed.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 12:05 am to bobbyray21
It wasn't really backed up with any kind of support. They were just fangirling/boying for Steffi.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 12:09 am to bobbyray21
"undisputed best ever player since 2002"
yet at 1 point in 2006, she was ranked 139 in the world and ended 2006 ranked 95.
sorry, i cannot agree that she was the undisputed best player. at times and in stretches, she has been most dominating and clearly the favorite and best, but it is not undipsuted. the best ever is not a snap shot of one's career but a look at the entire body of work. one of the best ever? absolutely; undisputed best ever or best player---no.
yet at 1 point in 2006, she was ranked 139 in the world and ended 2006 ranked 95.
sorry, i cannot agree that she was the undisputed best player. at times and in stretches, she has been most dominating and clearly the favorite and best, but it is not undipsuted. the best ever is not a snap shot of one's career but a look at the entire body of work. one of the best ever? absolutely; undisputed best ever or best player---no.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 12:26 am to ptra
quote:
Try to think how Serena would play have to use a wooden racket with a small head as Evert or KIng used in their prime. Her game would be completely different having less power and more precision.
Yeah, no shite.
How awesome would Nadal's spin-crazy groundstrokes look with Mac's 1981 Wimbledon woody special. Or Federer with his Sweet spot.
The Chrissy special:
Modern power:
The debate takes a whole new turn if we're just arguing skill vs. skill regardless or era and equipment and training. Is Serena really as skilled as Martini or Seles? Or is she just stronger than everyone now and in the past?
This post was edited on 5/16/13 at 12:27 am
Posted on 5/16/13 at 12:33 am to Zamoro10
Serena is one if the greatest of all time but sooo much of her game is predicated on power. Modern racquets only enhance it. And she has shown her arse on the court on multiple occasions. Pun intended.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 12:49 am to Ysebaert
You know who was really skilled and lost among the tennis history shuffle - Martina Hingis.
She became the undisputed World No. 1 women's tennis player at age 17 and almost won the grand slam that year losing in the French Open final...then she had a crazy mama...and according to this article (passage I found interesting) the game changed...
She became the undisputed World No. 1 women's tennis player at age 17 and almost won the grand slam that year losing in the French Open final...then she had a crazy mama...and according to this article (passage I found interesting) the game changed...
quote:
Hingis won five major singles championships in just over two years, and then, after that ’99 Aussie Open, the big titles stopped. Like John McEnroe before her, she got caught in an undertow during a sea change in the sport. Led by equipment advances and the rise of tennis academies, tennis suddenly swung toward big girls who mashed the ball every single time. Hingis was a better all-around player than Mauresmo and Lindsay Davenport and the Williams sisters, but, at 5’7” and a soft 130 pounds, she just couldn’t handle their power.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 12:56 am to Zamoro10
The Swiss Miss definitely deserves mention in this thread. One of the best shot makers, strategists, and competitors of all time. She had to construct points to win and she won a lot!
Posted on 5/16/13 at 1:06 am to Zamoro10
Hingis did beat Serena 6 times in 13 matches btw.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 3:33 am to Ysebaert
quote:
7-5 in the third is decisively?
Watch the video. Holler back.
Also, Serena had 45 winners. She was dictating play, said Steffi Graf.
quote:
"She was going for her shots more than I did," Graf said. "That was the difference in the end . . . With taking risks, you put pressure on your opponent. Just putting balls in play is not enough."
Posted on 5/16/13 at 3:35 am to Zamoro10
quote:
The debate takes a whole new turn if we're just arguing skill vs. skill regardless or era and equipment and training. Is Serena really as skilled as Martini or Seles? Or is she just stronger than everyone now and in the past?
Serena plays with literally the least advanced racquet on the women's tour.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 3:45 am to ptra
quote:
This is like your Floyd Mayweather thread. Modern athletes seem better. Changes in training and changes in equipment really help players appear to be better than players of the past.
You have to be able to translate how players of the past would perform with the same benefits players currently receive. I do not think you can question the work ethic of past players like King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf. Combine that work ethic with the training and equipment available today and I believe you would have players that could play at the same level as Serena.
Try to think how Serena would play have to use a wooden racket with a small head as Evert or KIng used in their prime. Her game would be completely different having less power and more precision.
She is currently the best player, one of the best all time, but I would not say best ever.
This is why you compare the players to their peers. I have no reason to believe that Serena wouldnt' have overpowered her opponents in a wooden racquet vs. racquet match. And why do I think that? Because the technology is the same for both players at any given time, and Serena has been overpowering opponents since 1999. Maria Sharapova ain't using a wooden racquet. In fact, her racquet is way more advanced than Serena's and Serena delivers her tasty bagels on the regular.*
*There is a decent amount of evidence suggesting that Grigor Dimitrov was at one point giving the D to Serena. He is now of course giving the D to Sharapova. Is this the reason the last few beatings have seemed even more decisive and unforgiving than the dozens of others? Does Serena miss the Dimitrov D?
Posted on 5/16/13 at 3:56 am to yellowtiger
quote:
"undisputed best ever player since 2002"
(1)
yet at 1 point in 2006, she was ranked 139 in the world and ended 2006 ranked 95.
(2)
sorry, i cannot agree that she was the undisputed best player. at times and in stretches, she has been most dominating and clearly the favorite and best,
(3)
but it is not undipsuted. the best ever is not a snap shot of one's career but a look at the entire body of work. one of the best ever? absolutely; undisputed best ever or best player---no.
Did you think about this before you wrote it?
(1)
Hadn't played tennis in over six motnhs. Knee injuries happen.
(2)
Then who was better than her at the game of tennis? Amelia Mauresmo? Maria Sharapova? Come on, think McFly.
(3)
It's quite undisputed. How about this: assume that all players on the WTA remained perfectly injury free between 2002 and today. Further assume that in each of those years an alien spaceship lands to destroy earth, but then decides to spare the planet based on the outcome of a tennis match. You are the leader of the planet, and so you get to pick which female player goes up against the alien player.
And now either (a) acknowledge that you selected Serena Williams each and every year or (b) that you don't care about the fate of the planet or the innocent children residing thereon.
Indisputably the best female tennis player on the planet. Twelve years running.
Who else has pulled that off?
Posted on 5/16/13 at 3:58 am to Ysebaert
quote:
They played only twice both toward's the end of Graf's career. Ironically Graf won the other match 7-5 in the third. A tally of games won between the two matches sums with Graf by one. Case closed.
The sample size leaves a lot to be desired. Do keep in mind that Serena was 17 years old, ranked somewhere in the 20s, and unknown to the world except maybe as being Venus' sister.
Posted on 5/16/13 at 4:02 am to Tweezy
quote:
It wasn't really backed up with any kind of support. They were just fangirling/boying for Steffi.
Well, hey, we all would have enjoyed some unprotected sex with Steffi back in her playing days. Her body was quite nice. She dominated Seles in that department.
But Seles was clearly getting the better of Graf at the actual playing of tennis.
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