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Started By
Message
re: The Orgeron Extension Talk: Why?
Posted on 1/31/19 at 10:10 pm to Icansee4miles
Posted on 1/31/19 at 10:10 pm to Icansee4miles
quote:
I always read when Les was the coach that LSU recruited itself. So which is it?
Recruited itself? What does that mean?
0
Posted on 1/31/19 at 10:31 pm to Buckeye Jeaux
quote:
Only a very few are top-5 consistently. Coach O appears to have joined them.
So last year doesn’t count?
Posted on 1/31/19 at 10:45 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
So last year doesn’t count?
Correct. Last year doesn’t count.
But even if you did include '18. O would likely average top-10 over 18, 19, and 20.
This post was edited on 1/31/19 at 11:09 pm
Posted on 1/31/19 at 11:15 pm to Buckeye Jeaux
Oh ok.
So it’s hard to find a coach who is consistently in the top 5
So we’ll just assume O will be in the top 10 the next three years.
And ignore a year that actually happened
So it’s hard to find a coach who is consistently in the top 5
So we’ll just assume O will be in the top 10 the next three years.
And ignore a year that actually happened
This post was edited on 1/31/19 at 11:16 pm
Posted on 1/31/19 at 11:23 pm to SammyTiger
There are not many great Xs and Os HC/OCs. Fewer great ADs:
Great ADs result in great HC Searches and Coaching hires and 'aligned' winning programs. Alleva does not make any lists for great ADs who know the value of football as the window on a University and Revenue growth. His history at Duke from 100-200 million Lacrosse scandal, baseball steroids, Disastrous football Coaching hires: 13-90 record - Duke thanked LSU in a letter for taking him off their hands....these are facts published by LSU Reveille, longing for the Emmert Flagship Agenda AD hire - 2 from LSU went to CLEM & A&M -Radakovich & Woodward:
Gene Smith knows his job
Radakovich knows his job
Scott Woodward knows his job
Orgeron Has Not Proven He Can Fix The Offense: It has trended down the last 4 yrs, the last 3 under O&E because they are not what was promised - an Offensive-minded Coach.
The Artifact in the SECW/SEC: The last 3 yrs have seen the majority of the SEC Coaches replaced because they failed to compete for titles/beat Saban or took jumps to better jobs like Mullen. Mullen left in a year he had the talent to win the West. But the Coaches Alleva passed on and which have been relentlessly attacked by Ree & Co., Fisher & Herman are proving along with Mullen that great Offensive Coaches make quick turnarounds. They have the "Sauce" and they have Great ADs.
Both, Offensive Architect, Game Planning, Play Calling, Hiring, retaining Coaches & Players, and much more:
Dabo has appeared in all 4 CFP playoffs the last 4 years and won 2, the last, a total demoralizing demolition of Saban, which could have been far worse.
OTOH: Saban was ready to claim what he believed all year: that Tua and ALA's consecutive years of recruiting and stockpiling talent, now on the Offensive side of the ball made this team unstoppable: "My team went 15-0 and we accomplished the greatest feat in history". Rat Poision!!
So, Saban, dejected, flips instantly from 1 game making his team the GOAT if he won it to "I don't believe 1 game defines who you are as a team." Pure Saban. Championship or Bust.
Saban then fires all his OCs/DCs or they leave so Saban can completely rebuild to try and catch Clemson.
So if the Recruiting relies on the position Coaches being long term at the school is true then it is open season on flipping his recruits...but it is not. Sort like "Saban to Tex" was going to crater his recruiting. Nope. Strawman.
Big Whoops! Dabo beat Saban worse than ALA beats LSU...with Dabo's Innovative Scheme that only requires the FR QB or any QB to make one simple read and either throw to one of his 4 WRs in 1on1 matchup, or hand off or pass to Etienne, or keep it himself. You have to go fast, not sub, empower the QB, make it simple.
Whether you Win or Lose is in How You Play the Game: the X's & Os that constitute the Scheme, Coaching history of Skill Player Development on both sides. Buckeye minimizes those shortcomings to 'Cheerleading'. That was not the case at Ohio State.
The only link between Dabo & O is that Dabo has moved the real Death Valley Tigers to Clemson S.C. as Etienne noted. He waited 9 mos for Eliot & Clemson to come calling. They did 2 days after the NC. Now Etienne is a top Heisman contender and leads the nation in Rushing TDs.
There is no valid comparison between O, a DL coach, and Dabo an Offensive Innovator. Dabo was a WR at ALA, WR/TE Coach at ALA before he went to Clemson and worked his way up to AHC/WR then Interim HC/OC over 5 years.
Dabo is very involved in the Offense...he was the architect. He fired and hired the OC & DC to implement a Big 12 Offense with an SEC Defense. It is built around his WR/TE/OC/AHC & Interim Coaching experience. Big difference is that he is an Offensive genius and surrounds himself with the best Coaches who share the same vision. They like their work. Winning is self-perpetuating and sustains Recruiting.
It is hard to duplicate historic success with incrementalism, excuses, and Next Year we will be better and everyone else Coaching for their jobs will stall out, not improve, or fall to our level.
Being great on Defense/TOP/Grinding it out, wearing down opponents and then blaming the Defense for not covering for your lack of Offense "3rd & Chavis/Aranda" is Scapegoating your weaknesses and not modern Offensive football.
Scoring Points is the Objective of the game and people are doing that at record rates.
Great ADs result in great HC Searches and Coaching hires and 'aligned' winning programs. Alleva does not make any lists for great ADs who know the value of football as the window on a University and Revenue growth. His history at Duke from 100-200 million Lacrosse scandal, baseball steroids, Disastrous football Coaching hires: 13-90 record - Duke thanked LSU in a letter for taking him off their hands....these are facts published by LSU Reveille, longing for the Emmert Flagship Agenda AD hire - 2 from LSU went to CLEM & A&M -Radakovich & Woodward:
Gene Smith knows his job
Radakovich knows his job
Scott Woodward knows his job
Orgeron Has Not Proven He Can Fix The Offense: It has trended down the last 4 yrs, the last 3 under O&E because they are not what was promised - an Offensive-minded Coach.
quote:
The fault here goes to Alleva's incompetent leadership that undervalued its own program to such a degree that it settled for the defensive line coach. Orgeron was always going to be there for LSU, whether the search took another week or another month. Nobody else was going to hire him to be a head coach. He could have been the fallback option to the fallback option. Furthermore, giving him an ironclad contract that the school couldn’t get out of quickly or inexpensively was just bad business by LSU.
The Artifact in the SECW/SEC: The last 3 yrs have seen the majority of the SEC Coaches replaced because they failed to compete for titles/beat Saban or took jumps to better jobs like Mullen. Mullen left in a year he had the talent to win the West. But the Coaches Alleva passed on and which have been relentlessly attacked by Ree & Co., Fisher & Herman are proving along with Mullen that great Offensive Coaches make quick turnarounds. They have the "Sauce" and they have Great ADs.
quote:
Either Dabo is more involved in the offense than we give him credit for or he’s better at hiring
Both, Offensive Architect, Game Planning, Play Calling, Hiring, retaining Coaches & Players, and much more:
Dabo has appeared in all 4 CFP playoffs the last 4 years and won 2, the last, a total demoralizing demolition of Saban, which could have been far worse.
OTOH: Saban was ready to claim what he believed all year: that Tua and ALA's consecutive years of recruiting and stockpiling talent, now on the Offensive side of the ball made this team unstoppable: "My team went 15-0 and we accomplished the greatest feat in history". Rat Poision!!
So, Saban, dejected, flips instantly from 1 game making his team the GOAT if he won it to "I don't believe 1 game defines who you are as a team." Pure Saban. Championship or Bust.
Saban then fires all his OCs/DCs or they leave so Saban can completely rebuild to try and catch Clemson.
So if the Recruiting relies on the position Coaches being long term at the school is true then it is open season on flipping his recruits...but it is not. Sort like "Saban to Tex" was going to crater his recruiting. Nope. Strawman.
Big Whoops! Dabo beat Saban worse than ALA beats LSU...with Dabo's Innovative Scheme that only requires the FR QB or any QB to make one simple read and either throw to one of his 4 WRs in 1on1 matchup, or hand off or pass to Etienne, or keep it himself. You have to go fast, not sub, empower the QB, make it simple.
Whether you Win or Lose is in How You Play the Game: the X's & Os that constitute the Scheme, Coaching history of Skill Player Development on both sides. Buckeye minimizes those shortcomings to 'Cheerleading'. That was not the case at Ohio State.
The only link between Dabo & O is that Dabo has moved the real Death Valley Tigers to Clemson S.C. as Etienne noted. He waited 9 mos for Eliot & Clemson to come calling. They did 2 days after the NC. Now Etienne is a top Heisman contender and leads the nation in Rushing TDs.
There is no valid comparison between O, a DL coach, and Dabo an Offensive Innovator. Dabo was a WR at ALA, WR/TE Coach at ALA before he went to Clemson and worked his way up to AHC/WR then Interim HC/OC over 5 years.
Dabo is very involved in the Offense...he was the architect. He fired and hired the OC & DC to implement a Big 12 Offense with an SEC Defense. It is built around his WR/TE/OC/AHC & Interim Coaching experience. Big difference is that he is an Offensive genius and surrounds himself with the best Coaches who share the same vision. They like their work. Winning is self-perpetuating and sustains Recruiting.
It is hard to duplicate historic success with incrementalism, excuses, and Next Year we will be better and everyone else Coaching for their jobs will stall out, not improve, or fall to our level.
Being great on Defense/TOP/Grinding it out, wearing down opponents and then blaming the Defense for not covering for your lack of Offense "3rd & Chavis/Aranda" is Scapegoating your weaknesses and not modern Offensive football.
Scoring Points is the Objective of the game and people are doing that at record rates.
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 1:34 am
Posted on 1/31/19 at 11:40 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
So it’s hard to find a coach who is consistently in the top 5
So we’ll just assume O will be in the top 10 the next three years.
And ignore a year that actually happened
2018 - 15
2019 - 5 (or better estimated)
2020 - 5 (or better estimated)
15+5+5 = 20 divided by 3 = 7.3
So, a top-10 finish average INCLUDING 2018 (And 2017, in fact)
This post was edited on 1/31/19 at 11:44 pm
Posted on 1/31/19 at 11:46 pm to Buckeye Jeaux
Counting a year that hasn’t happened yet.
Shouldn’t we wait to see if he can actually recruit a top 5 class consistently before we give him an extension for being able to recruit a top 5 class consistently?
Also loving the back track to top 10 average from Top 5 consistently.
Shouldn’t we wait to see if he can actually recruit a top 5 class consistently before we give him an extension for being able to recruit a top 5 class consistently?
Also loving the back track to top 10 average from Top 5 consistently.
This post was edited on 1/31/19 at 11:49 pm
Posted on 1/31/19 at 11:47 pm to Buckeye Jeaux
Recruiting Talent has never translated to Wins/Losses at LSU: In 2016 when O took over the 3 yr average was 3.3 Nationally.
Up until signing day you say you will win with incoming talent after that the fact is you win with Coaching.
This post was edited on 1/31/19 at 11:52 pm
Posted on 1/31/19 at 11:55 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
Shouldn’t we wait to see if he can actually recruit a top 5 class consistently before we give him an extension for being able to recruit a top 5 class consistently?
That's like waiting for the stock market to peak, and THEN investing in it. If you don't have the football chops to look a year or two down the road, maybe you should try another sport.
You NegaTigers already crapped your prognosticating pants by predicting that O would have a bad season in 2018. No one is buying your stale brand of BS anymore.
This post was edited on 1/31/19 at 11:57 pm
Posted on 1/31/19 at 11:59 pm to Buckeye Jeaux
quote:
That's like waiting for the stock market to peak, and THEN investing in it. If you don't have the football chops to look a year or two down the road, maybe you should try another sport.
Except we already have him under contract. That analogy doesn’t work.
There is no stock market equivalent of paying more for a stock you already own.
No one with the money to our spend usnis going to hire O away from us. And we can match an offer if we need to. But realistically we could have waited 1 more year to see if this season is a trend or a peak.
quote:
You NegaTigers already crapped your prognosticating pants by predicting that O would have a bad season in 2018. No one is buying your stale brand of BS.
I’ve shown you my prediction for 2018. I even predicted 12-2 in 2017. I completely sold myself on this working. And so far, it’s looking like Les 2.0, which isn’t that bad. Les won a lot of games, an NC and played for another, but being Les with no NC isn’t what you want .
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 12:01 am
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:07 am to SammyTiger
quote:Except that O is under contract at a pay rate which is less than most Power 5 coaches (36th of 65 P-5 HCs) - so the analogy works just fine.
Except we already have him under contract. That analogy doesn’t work.
List of NCAA coaches 2018 salaries:
LINK
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 12:09 am
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:10 am to Buckeye Jeaux
So what?
It’s a good thing to pay less for something good. It’s callled a deal.
No one is beating down our doors for O, we’re bidding against ourselves. You neve bid against yourself.
If you don’t understand why O wouldn’t be this successful at 125/130 schools in FBS football you’re clueless.
If next uear he has a top 5 team and a top 5 recruiting class, fricking extend him, give him a big ole raise for sure.
But if next year he goes 10-3 again, then we’ve just extended our co tract with a guy we have to start asking the hard questions about.
It’s a good thing to pay less for something good. It’s callled a deal.
No one is beating down our doors for O, we’re bidding against ourselves. You neve bid against yourself.
If you don’t understand why O wouldn’t be this successful at 125/130 schools in FBS football you’re clueless.
If next uear he has a top 5 team and a top 5 recruiting class, fricking extend him, give him a big ole raise for sure.
But if next year he goes 10-3 again, then we’ve just extended our co tract with a guy we have to start asking the hard questions about.
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 12:13 am
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:12 am to Buckeye Jeaux
quote:
Except that O is under contract at a pay rate which is less than most Power 5 coache
That was supposed to be the plan.
O was gonna be paid less and the difference would be getting the best coordinators money could buy
quote:
so the analogy works just fine.
He was payed perfectly for a coach that had never in his life proven he could run a successful side of the ball let alone a program.
The day O was hired, every single rant poster had as much experience running a succesful side of the ball or running a successful program, as O.
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 1:15 am
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:13 am to SammyTiger
quote:
It’s a good thing to pay less for something good. It’s callled a deal.
And dont forget...
Lsu was his dream job.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:14 am to Buckeye Jeaux
Moving the goalposts Prematurely Raising Pay without Competing for Championships:
That 75 million Fisher hire has been mocked on this Board as recently as the 4th Qtr of the A&M Game in a thread "Not Looking Like 75 Million." Now it is "well O doesn't make as much as Fisher".
Herman received the same treatment. Now LSU posters want to use other Coaches, we passed on, and their pay as justification to boost O's pay before he proves he can fix the Offense which has posted Zero points vs the Benchmark SECW program.
That 75 million Fisher hire has been mocked on this Board as recently as the 4th Qtr of the A&M Game in a thread "Not Looking Like 75 Million." Now it is "well O doesn't make as much as Fisher".
Herman received the same treatment. Now LSU posters want to use other Coaches, we passed on, and their pay as justification to boost O's pay before he proves he can fix the Offense which has posted Zero points vs the Benchmark SECW program.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:15 am to Rickdaddy4188
quote:
He was payed perfectly for a coach that had never in his life proven he could run a successful side of the ball let alone a program.
I would actually agree with that. But that was then. This is now.
LSU isn't the only program with billionaire boosters willing to drop 10 or 20 mil toward a brand new coaching staff. Most established football programs have those guys. Some of these boosters love X&O HCs, and some are partial to Jimmy & Joe HCs. Personally, I'd put Orgeron at the top of the J&J "available" HCs.
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 12:21 am
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:20 am to Buckeye Jeaux
[/img] Want to see if he is getting better or just has PR Spin Machine? Then take this free offer and publish it here.
CBTN: Coaching by the Numbers is like an audit of the entire program and measures strengths & improvement over 5 yrs as compared to their Conference Average. FWIW these 2 programs are dominating and still improving, especially Clemson. If I were an AD/HC/OC/President I would want to know this information. Lane Kiffin paid for this analysis in 2017 for FAU.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:43 am to Buckeye Jeaux
quote:
That's like waiting for the stock market to peak, and THEN investing in it. If you don't have the football chops to look a year or two down the road, maybe you should try another sport.
It's not even remotely similar.
What is the risk to LSU if they don't extend Orgeron? Is another school going to take him? Is the NFL going to take him?
The recruiting angle is utter bullshite. Every recruit knows coaches can be fired regardless of the term left on their contract. They also know Orgeron isn't going anywhere if he's winning.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:45 am to SammyTiger
quote:If O goes 10-3 and hires a new OC, he'll be fine.
But if next year he goes 10-3 again, then we’ve just extended our co tract with a guy we have to start asking the hard questions about.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 12:48 am to Buckeye Jeaux
quote:
If O goes 10-3 and hires a new OC, he'll be fine.
If he loses 3 games next season, barring an injury to Burrow, he should be on a massive hot seat.
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