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re: Robert E. Lee has been misrepresented by regressive "historians"

Posted on 5/22/17 at 11:12 am to
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65147 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 11:12 am to
quote:

He knew we'd never "beat" the north, he just hoped to prolong the war and they get tired of spending money and men losing lives.


This is incorrect. His main goal until the post-Gettysburg period was to destroy the Union army in a single battle of decision and dictate terms to Lincoln in the Oval Office.

quote:

he finally made the unpopular decision to surrender


Probably because he was surrounded and had no way to break out. At Appomattox, Lee had just over 21,000 men at arms. Grant had close to 100,000 men in the township's immediate vicinity.

quote:

You can't say slavery had nothing to do with the war, you also can't say it had everything to do with it


Slavery had everything to do with the events between December 1860 and March 1861. If slavery doesn't exist the Deep South never secedes.
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 11:26 am to
quote:

This is incorrect. His main goal until the post-Gettysburg period was to destroy the Union army in a single battle of decision and dictate terms to Lincoln in the Oval Office.


Key word is post Gettysburg. Prior to that he planned on staying MOSTLY defensive. He messed up by going into Gettysburg, I've already stated that.

quote:

Probably because he was surrounded and had no way to break out. At Appomattox, Lee had just over 21,000 men at arms. Grant had close to 100,000 men in the township's immediate vicinity.


That doesn't mean it wasn't unpopular decision. His lower commanders and regular soldiers were begging him not to surrender. That is well documented.

quote:

Slavery had everything to do with the events between December 1860 and March 1861. If slavery doesn't exist the Deep South never secedes.


Meh, this will be debated for the next 100 years. Nobody ever wins this argument. I won't change your mind nor will you change mine. As I've said, I'm glad the north won the war.


Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 5/22/17 at 1:27 pm to
quote:

Slavery had everything to do with the events between December 1860 and March 1861. If slavery doesn't exist the Deep South never secedes.



So what? The reason for the war was the southern states leaving the union. That is what the north attempted to prevent, and what the southern states fought to achieve. It's really not difficult to understand, It's written in plain English what both sides said about the issue at all levels of the conflict.

If Lincoln had raised armies to raid southern slave plantations, he would have been the GOAT president. But he didn't. He raised an army to protect a political arrangement between the state governments in order to maintain, and increase, central federal control over the actions of the people in the states. He was even vocal about his willingness to allow slavery to continue in the south IF THEY STAYED IN THE UNION.

The south's secession wasn't just about slavery, as Lincoln himself said he wouldn't go after that issue IF IT WOULD PRESERVE THE UNION. That wasn't good enough for the wealthy plantation owners though. They wanted slavery AND political and economic independence. Lincoln wanted a strong central government, which he could only have through the preservation of the union.

Lincoln was elected despite not winning a single southern state, which indicated to many southerners, not just plantation owners, that the presidency was controlled by the industrialized cities in the north, basically the same issue that many complain about now with the massive power that just a few US states have over the rest of the country. Just take a look at the map of the 1860 election.

This is from the Georgia secession letter:

quote:

The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury.

The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects.

Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency.

The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.

But when these reasons ceased they were no less clamorous for Government protection, but their clamors were less heeded-- the country had put the principle of protection upon trial and condemned it. After having enjoyed protection to the extent of from 15 to 200 per cent. upon their entire business for above thirty years, the act of 1846 was passed. It avoided sudden change, but the principle was settled, and free trade, low duties, and economy in public expenditures was the verdict of the American people. The South and the Northwestern States sustained this policy. There was but small hope of its reversal; upon the direct issue, none at all.


Clearly there was a lot more than just slavery at play here. Yes, the south was a totally slave based economy and wished to preserve it, but they were also dissatisfied with the northern industrial cronyism that was paid for by everyone else, including the south, that saw little direct benefit from these programs. Lincoln's election was possible without even a single southern state, and his desire to centralize control and continue the subsidies and cronyism with the industrialists posed a clear and holistic political threat to the south's political and economic power.

Take out slavery, and those issues do not change. The south will still be agriculturally driven, and their northern neighbors still driven by industrialists, and their political interests will still be completely opposite.
This post was edited on 5/22/17 at 1:28 pm
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