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re: So NOAA and NASA are doctoring temperature data.

Posted on 7/23/14 at 2:22 pm to
Posted by CptBengal
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
71661 posts
Posted on 7/23/14 at 2:22 pm to
quote:

No, I'm pretty sure the term is "halocline," because I'm talking about salinity.


Yes, that is a halocline. However because of deep water formation in that area and SEA ICE PRODUCTION, the water is fairly stable in terms of salinity from the surface on down. Here, let's look at a graph:


So we have a .2 ppt change in salinity ( ), versus a 3 degree change in temperature, and you still think it's a halocline driven stratification? you're embarrassing yourself.

quote:

f you've got a mathematical showing that the temperature component of the pycnocline neutralizes the salinity component, I'm all ears.


here's what I posted about a pycnocline:

quote:

ctually the term is "pycnocline" as it is both temperature and salinity based.


See the BOTH word in there. Neutralize what? wtf are you even talking about? Or are you just tilting at windmills?



From your paper you cited. Actually it has the stable water mass between 100-150 m depth. Do you know why? Deep Water Formation.

quote:

but made an incredibly shallow argument ignoring an incredibly obvious mechanism (salinity) by which the heat capacity of the water could be modified.


And what does increased salinity due to waters heat capacity?

or were you going to argue that this fresh water on the surface, which incidentally freezes due to a lack of salinity, thereby in your article's opinion increasing sea ice have to do with the heat capacity of the surrounding water?

How does that affect the salinity argument at all?

quote:

But in my experience most skeptics with actual qualifications just aren't interested in challenging the literature head-on.


I just did.
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 7/23/14 at 2:47 pm to
quote:

So we have a .2 ppt change in salinity ( ), versus a 3 degree change in temperature, and you still think it's a halocline driven stratification? you're embarrassing yourself.
When did I say it was a "halocline-driven stratification?" I attributed the recent rise in sea ice to changes in the halocline. Not the entirety of Antarctic stratification.
quote:

See the BOTH word in there. Neutralize what? wtf are you even talking about? Or are you just tilting at windmills?
I stated that recent growth in Antarctic sea ice was attributable to changes in the halocline. You stated that the temperature is a far greater driver of stratification than the halocline, which is certainly true. But that's an insufficient basis by itself to invalidate the hypothesis. You would have to quantify the surface temperature changes in that area specifically and show that they are in a direction which could also account for the ice growth. However, you would have a difficult time doing so, since their direction has been warming. (However, since the "warming" is still below the freezing point, the loss of salinity results in increased sea ice, further enhanced by feedbacks from reduced convection.)
quote:

The simplest explanation for this change is a freshening of surface water in the high latitudes of the Southern Ocean, and the estimated increase of P - E in the Southern Ocean is about 31 mm per year between 55°S and 65°S. Using measurements from the Argo network of profiling floats and historical oceanographic data, a more-recent analysis detected that the Southern Ocean became fresher since the 1960s, which extends to depths of more than 1,000m. Another potential contributor to the increased freshening of surface water in the southern high latitudes might be the increased melting of glacial ice and iceberg calving. The increased freshwater input in the high latitudes of the Southern Ocean would decrease the upper ocean salinity (density), leading to a more stable thermohaline stratification and weakened convective overturning. This reduces the upward ocean heat flux available to melt sea ice. Because of the reduced upward ocean heat transport, the simulated SST under sea ice in the 1990s was ~0.2 °C colder than that in the 1950s (Fig. 4A). In a weakly stratified Southern Ocean, the ocean heat flux induced ice melt decreases faster than the ice growth, allowing an increase in the net ice production.
By the way, the above paper was written by Judith Curry, one of the more prominent skeptics in the business. I'm no expert myself, but when the skeptics and the alarmists are singing the same tune, I think there's consensus in them thar hills.
quote:

And what does increased salinity due to waters heat capacity?

or were you going to argue that this fresh water on the surface, which incidentally freezes due to a lack of salinity, thereby in your article's opinion increasing sea ice have to do with the heat capacity of the surrounding water?

How does that affect the salinity argument at all?
I can't really parse this very well, but you seem to be arguing that the fresh water freezes on the surface and doesn't mix with the surrounding water? To which I say: not immediately, no. Eventually, after enough minima and drift, yes.
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