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Long Short strategies

Posted on 6/28/10 at 11:15 am
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 11:15 am
Post your ideas here.

Long Anadarko/Short BP
Long Ford/Short VW
Long National Bank of Greece/Short Bank of Ireland

Full disclosure: Since my first try with shorting on RCII, I have not shorted anything again.
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 12:06 pm to
I will play devil's advocate here to help you eliminate some confirmation bias.

quote:

Long Anadarko/Short BP


I feel like APC, while beaten down, could run a lot more. I personally don't know enough about the legal situation wrt to the oil spill to know their maximum exposure, but I feel like, given the situation, someone is going exact their pound of flesh from them as well. IDK enough about their ops to say anything more without talking out of my arse though. You know how I feel about BP as I've stated that opinion multiple times.

quote:

Long Ford/Short VW


That's an interesting pair, what's the catalyst to make them move inversely? What is the underlying event? Euro meltdown/US rebound (at least in car sales)?

quote:

Long National Bank of Greece/Short Bank of Ireland


I can see the potential windfall from the BOG move, but BIE is so beaten down as is (not that it shouldn't be), your potential profit on the short side is severely limited. As with F/VW, what's the catalyst here?
Posted by layingpipelikeDB50
Member since Jun 2010
213 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 12:23 pm to
Long anything going up/ Short anything going down

but seriously long UUU/ short HOG
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 1:10 pm to
quote:

That's an interesting pair, what's the catalyst to make them move inversely? What is the underlying event? Euro meltdown/US rebound (at least in car sales)?


That's not the point of a long short, the idea is that they will move in a similar manner (caused by the market), but the company that is better (relatively) will fall less or rise more than the other.

I think that the US will be flat while europe has some real tough times ahead of it. Relative strength to Ford.

quote:

I can see the potential windfall from the BOG move, but BIE is so beaten down as is (not that it shouldn't be), your potential profit on the short side is severely limited. As with F/VW, what's the catalyst here?


Once again, relative valuation.

As I learned in my first short attempt, it's always a good idea to hedge your shorts with a long in a similar company to account for the possibility of economic factors.
Posted by layingpipelikeDB50
Member since Jun 2010
213 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 2:08 pm to
quote:

That's not the point of a long short, the idea is that they will move in a similar manner (caused by the market), but the company that is better (relatively) will fall less or rise more than the other.


this makes zero sense. in a bull market your short would handcuff your P/L while the reverse would be true if prices are falling
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 2:21 pm to
quote:

this makes zero sense. in a bull market your short would handcuff your P/L while the reverse would be true if prices are falling


So what you are saying is that making a steady, reliable profit in all markets makes zero sense?
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 2:26 pm to
Its called hedging brah. Everybody's doing it.
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 2:29 pm to
Yeah I misunderstood you, my b.
Posted by layingpipelikeDB50
Member since Jun 2010
213 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 2:47 pm to
How about have some confidence in your research and estimates?
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 3:04 pm to
quote:

How about have some confidence in your research and estimates?


I think that shows great confidence in my research and estimates and a lack of confidence in the rationality of the markets.

If you are going to attack this strategy, I'm sure the hundreds of hedge fund managers who employ this system would love to hear why you think they are dumb.
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 3:10 pm to
I think we should get back to the OP. Don't hedge if you don't want to, but its hardly a novel concept. THF: Doesn't VW have a large Asian operation? Are these all macro strategies above anything else?
Posted by layingpipelikeDB50
Member since Jun 2010
213 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 3:10 pm to
i'm not even going to touch this


Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 3:17 pm to
quote:

Doesn't VW have a large Asian operation?


Yes, but they are still heavily influenced by Europe and I don't think there's any way that having the home and funtional currency of a company get blown up is a good thing.

quote:

Are these all macro strategies above anything else?


The BP/APC play is not. It's definitely a "same sinking ship, but better lifeboat" play.

Bankrupting Anadarko with punitive damage would make no sense since they weren't the ones screwing the whole deal up. I don't see why Cameron is so impervious while Anadarko is not, when the amount of blame they deserve is about the same (from what I understand).

Also, the public doesn't want Anadarko's head on a platter.

Finally, if the US wants to screw with Anadarko too much, their business floats, while BP's doesn't.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 5:09 pm to
Why not hedge with options instead?

And, BTW, I've always had a soft spot for APC, but need to brush up my DD.
This post was edited on 6/28/10 at 5:10 pm
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 6/28/10 at 5:42 pm to
Hedging is 4 dummies.
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 6/29/10 at 8:11 am to
quote:

Why not hedge with options instead?


That's a different beast.

Long Short is an absolute return strategy, whereas hedging with options costs money unless the stock is going up (time value decay on the option).
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