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Posted on 11/14/23 at 11:25 am to Champagne
quote:
Once Saved Always Saved is a man-made doctrine that does not seem to align with your personal beliefs, based on what you posted.
I was "saved" and baptized at the age of 13 and I 100% believe that at that moment God was in my heart. I turned away from church and God as I got older and struggled with what I was taught. I had doubts and I wasn't living the life I should have been. Even later on when I settled down, I still had my doubts. I was always a believer and told myself I was saved and baptized. Now I know I am saved because I studied the bible myself and I know what I believe, I know my faith. I don't get down when I fall short, I ask for forgiveness and for God to work on me to be more Christ like.
There is so much I have learned in just the past year that opened my eyes to how easy it is to be a Christian. I'm not talking about just sinning as you will and can ask for forgiveness and keep sinning. I know now that all my sins are behind me, I know there isn't some special ritual or having a priest bless me to get me in to Heaven. Jesus made it simple so everyone can understand. It's man that tries to make it complicated and put all these requirements in place.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 11:35 am to Flats
quote:
I'm not interested in hashing out orange vs green, but what do you guys do with Acts 17:11? I've heard both sides of the usual verses but I've never heard the Catholic take on that one.
This is referring to OT scriptures. Surely no Protestant thinks we are to abide by the OT alone.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 3:04 pm to Blizzard of Chizz
quote:
You need context here. If I recall correctly God commanded the absolute complete and total destruction of these people because they were so wicked and so depraved that they were beyond any sort of redemption. In other words they were so given over to evil that the most merciful thing for them was death… this is not the moral equivalent of Hitler wanting to eradicate Jews from the face of the earth for being Jews.
You really don’t see any parallels here? Nothing in common? Maybe God told Hitler that the Jews were wicked and depraved and beyond redemption, and that the most merciful thing for them was death?
The winners/victors that are doing the genocidal rampaging usually make up an excuse to excuse their actions that other people might deem to be immoral.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 3:11 pm to Blizzard of Chizz
quote:
Call it possession, whatever you want, but it’s well documented the role the occult played within the Nazi power structure.
Man I went down this same rabbit hole last night. wondering if it's even possible for someone with salvation to be possessed. I don't think it is. obviously there are accounts of Jesus saving people from demon possession.
Was reading Job during that rabbit hole dive..
??Job? ?12:23?-?24? ?NIV??
[23] He makes nations great, and destroys them; he enlarges nations, and disperses them. [24] He deprives the leaders of the earth of their reason; he makes them wander in a trackless waste.
see.. neatly tied it all back in to politics. lol.
Anyhow. I enjoyed reading yalls thoughts. Interesting discussion for sure.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 3:30 pm to Blizzard of Chizz
quote:
You need context here. If I recall correctly God commanded the absolute complete and total destruction of these people because they were so wicked and so depraved that they were beyond any sort of redemption. In other words they were so given over to evil that the most merciful thing for them was death…
Sure, according to the people who eradicated them. Posted on 11/14/23 at 4:12 pm to Flats
I agree with Catholic Answers when it comes to that Bible verse. That verse is no "proof" of sola scriptura at all.
In fact, nowhere in the Bible is there any "proof" of the doctrine of sola scriptura and that's because it's a doctrine invented by men who lived Fifteen Centuries after Christ walked the Earth.
Here's what Catholic Answers says about it and it is the final word on this issue IMHO.
LINK
In fact, nowhere in the Bible is there any "proof" of the doctrine of sola scriptura and that's because it's a doctrine invented by men who lived Fifteen Centuries after Christ walked the Earth.
Here's what Catholic Answers says about it and it is the final word on this issue IMHO.
LINK
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 4:13 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 4:29 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:11 pm to Squirrelmeister
Eternal Security (Once saved always saved):
Let us examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation and to study what losing salvation would entail:
A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.
A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.
A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.
A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?
A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.
A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). According to Romans 5:1, justification is ours at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification comes with justification. All those whom God justifies are promised to be glorified. This promise will be fulfilled when Christians receive their perfect resurrection bodies in heaven.
If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).
Once Saved Always Saved!
Let us examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation and to study what losing salvation would entail:
A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.
A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.
A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.
A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?
A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.
A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). According to Romans 5:1, justification is ours at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification comes with justification. All those whom God justifies are promised to be glorified. This promise will be fulfilled when Christians receive their perfect resurrection bodies in heaven.
If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).
Once Saved Always Saved!
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 5:12 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:43 pm to Champagne
quote:
That verse is no "proof" of sola scriptura at all.
It wasn't meant to be. It's an example of people relying on the OT, using nothing but their own interpretation, to determine if what the "experts" told them was true. The standard wasn't what they heard from any apostle, it was scripture.
And they were praised for it.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:44 pm to tgerb8
quote:
Once saved always saved
I don’t like the term, but I do adhere to this position. I prefer the terms,” if truly saved, always saved” or “ the security of the believer.”
If a truly saved person can lose his salvation based on things he does or doesn’t do, this means he is the one actually keeping himself saved by his works.
The Bible says that Jesus is the author and finisher or our faith. And Jesus says we are in his hand, inside the Father’s hand, and no one can pluck us out.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 5:45 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:45 pm to tgerb8
The vine and the branches, John 15, doesn't seem like it is compatible with once saved always saved.
Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. If we understand that by our baptisms we are made into the body of Christ, in the case of the parable the branch is united with Christ the vine. However it says those who do not bear fruit are cut off and cast into the fire. So those who were in the body of Christ, or the vine, are cut off from his body and cast into the fire.
Secondly Philippians 2:12 work on your salvation with fear and trembling. Doesn't sound like when I'm saved I don't have to worry about my salvation anymore.
Another passage that doesn't make sense with once saved always saved is Galatians 5:4. How can you be severed from Christ if you are always saved? How can we fall from grace if we can't lose our salvation?
One more thing
I think there is a difference in Hope and Assurance.
I have hope that Jesus will save me from eternal punishment when I die.
however I don't have assurance that he will save me, because I could reject him by my sin before I die, without a repent heart at my death, I could go to hell. Even though I was baptized and my sins forgiven many times by God through the sacrament of penance.
Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. If we understand that by our baptisms we are made into the body of Christ, in the case of the parable the branch is united with Christ the vine. However it says those who do not bear fruit are cut off and cast into the fire. So those who were in the body of Christ, or the vine, are cut off from his body and cast into the fire.
Secondly Philippians 2:12 work on your salvation with fear and trembling. Doesn't sound like when I'm saved I don't have to worry about my salvation anymore.
Another passage that doesn't make sense with once saved always saved is Galatians 5:4. How can you be severed from Christ if you are always saved? How can we fall from grace if we can't lose our salvation?
One more thing
I think there is a difference in Hope and Assurance.
I have hope that Jesus will save me from eternal punishment when I die.
however I don't have assurance that he will save me, because I could reject him by my sin before I die, without a repent heart at my death, I could go to hell. Even though I was baptized and my sins forgiven many times by God through the sacrament of penance.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 5:49 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:50 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
However it says those who do not bear fruit are cut off and cast into the fire.
Correct, and a truly saved person will bear fruit, but a person who had a false conversion will not. There is no contradiction here
Galatians 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justifiedfn by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul is talking to people that think they are saved by the law or think somehow it’s a combination of the two.
Galatians 3:3 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 5:55 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:54 pm to Revelator
quote:
Correct, and a truly saved person will bear fruit, but a person who had a false conversion will bear not. There is no contradiction here
So how can we know that our initial act of conversion is a true and not false one?
Again I think the key difference here is hope vs assurance.
I can't know the mind of God and how he will judge me, however I have hope that he will judge me with mercy and will grant me salvation at my death.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:56 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
So how can we know that our initial act of conversion is a true and not false one?
Because that person will live a consistent Christian life and become more like Christ though sanctification.
The parable of the seed is a good illustration of true converts and false ones.
The true converts bear fruit. The false ones start off strong but get entangled in the cares of the world. Others fall on rocky ground and produce no fruit.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 6:02 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:02 pm to Revelator
quote:
Because that person will live a consistent Christian life and become more like Christ though sanctification.
ok but what about when the person sins? If you claim well once you are saved you never sin again, this appears to go against 1 John 1:8 If we say, “We are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Maybe I'm deceived but even some of the holiest people I know will still struggle with sin .They seem to become more like Christ and living out the consistent christian life but still sinning.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 6:03 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:59 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
ok but what about when the person sins? If you claim well once you are saved you never sin again,
Who claims this? This is insane. Of course we sin. We all sin because we are sinners. That’s precisely why our works can’t save us. Our sins don’t take away our salvation, it simply hinders our relationship with Christ.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 7:00 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 7:15 pm to First Sergeant1
Here's what Catholic Answers says about the Heresy of Once Saved Always Saved, which is a Heresy that not even all Protestants agree to.
OSAS
OSAS
Posted on 11/14/23 at 7:15 pm to Revelator
Well...OSAS, I would answer this way: How does one uncreate a new creation? Paul tells Timothy, 'Mark this down, perilous days are ahead.....they will take upon the form of godliness but deny its power [wolves in the clothing of sheep].
Either one is or one isn't a disciple. Judas was a follower, not a disciple. Peter was a disciple, sinned, and was forgiven.
Jesus will not 'divide His own house' - either one is or one isn't.
A sinner saved by grace becomes a saint who will occasionally sin and that no way includes crimes against humanity such as Hilter...there is no fruit of the Spirit evidenced
Either one is or one isn't a disciple. Judas was a follower, not a disciple. Peter was a disciple, sinned, and was forgiven.
Jesus will not 'divide His own house' - either one is or one isn't.
A sinner saved by grace becomes a saint who will occasionally sin and that no way includes crimes against humanity such as Hilter...there is no fruit of the Spirit evidenced
Posted on 11/14/23 at 7:17 pm to Revelator
quote:
a truly saved person will bear fruit, but a person who had a false conversion will not
Circular logic at work here.
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