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Message
Paging Aubie101 re: "Once saved always saved"
Posted on 11/14/23 at 12:23 am
Posted on 11/14/23 at 12:23 am
For those of you who undoubtedly browsed here out of curiosity or boredom, this a reply to Aubie101 regarding a discussion in the memes thread... Just trying to not derail that thread further.
i think Im following the convo here but correct me if I'm wrong.
Reading back I'm guessing this is an attempt at a gotcha for "once saved always saved," but my answer is...
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
That being said...
When James said "I do the things I don't want to do" he's stating a lot more than what's on the surface. it's implying conviction and remorse. Things Hitler showed no sign of.
IMO you pointing to Romans 11:22 is kind of crazy. IMO The verse/chapter is more of a warning against "never saved, always lost" than some sort of indictment against "once saved always saved." They're cut off from the kindness of God for being unbelievers. Belief is the only path to salvation. So, to me, it's saying they're cut off because they aren't saved. Which is pointing to the fact that there is absolutely a point when you will lose your OPPORTUNITY/mindset to seek salvation. Usually this lost opportunity is death. sometimes God "gives up" on you and gives you over to a depraved mind (this is when remorse and conviction go bye bye - Hitler?) . It's a warning that time is ticking but He's waiting to graft you back into the tree if you seek Him and throw off your unbelief.
Romans? ?11:23? ?NIV??
[23] And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Also. I had admittedly never heard of the concept of Sola Scriptura (I mean.. yes I 100 percent adhere to this principle.. I just didn't know it had a name). so I looked it up. If the Bible is not the only authority, what are the others? Who decided they were authorities? and even if they were some how ordained truth, how could they possibly contradict the Bible instead of reinforcing it?
i think Im following the convo here but correct me if I'm wrong.
quote:
So if Hitler gave his life to Christ when he was 20 he is saved? I know your next answer before you write it.
Reading back I'm guessing this is an attempt at a gotcha for "once saved always saved," but my answer is...
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
That being said...
When James said "I do the things I don't want to do" he's stating a lot more than what's on the surface. it's implying conviction and remorse. Things Hitler showed no sign of.
IMO you pointing to Romans 11:22 is kind of crazy. IMO The verse/chapter is more of a warning against "never saved, always lost" than some sort of indictment against "once saved always saved." They're cut off from the kindness of God for being unbelievers. Belief is the only path to salvation. So, to me, it's saying they're cut off because they aren't saved. Which is pointing to the fact that there is absolutely a point when you will lose your OPPORTUNITY/mindset to seek salvation. Usually this lost opportunity is death. sometimes God "gives up" on you and gives you over to a depraved mind (this is when remorse and conviction go bye bye - Hitler?) . It's a warning that time is ticking but He's waiting to graft you back into the tree if you seek Him and throw off your unbelief.
Romans? ?11:23? ?NIV??
[23] And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Also. I had admittedly never heard of the concept of Sola Scriptura (I mean.. yes I 100 percent adhere to this principle.. I just didn't know it had a name). so I looked it up. If the Bible is not the only authority, what are the others? Who decided they were authorities? and even if they were some how ordained truth, how could they possibly contradict the Bible instead of reinforcing it?
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 12:47 am
21
Posted on 11/14/23 at 12:46 am to tgerb8
This isn't the Religion Board
In fact, we don't have a religion board
nvm, forget I said anything
In fact, we don't have a religion board
nvm, forget I said anything
Posted on 11/14/23 at 12:51 am to Kafka
Maybe we should have a Religion board? Or maybe the "Help Board" is the incognito religion board? Never ventured.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 1:13 am to tgerb8
OSAS depends on the No True Scotsman fallacy. If someone professes Christ and falls away, qed they were never truly saved in the first place.
And I adhere to OSAS. But I acknowledge there's a gaping hole in the logic of it that my imperfect human understanding can't reconcile. I used to run myself in circles with these questions. Now I leave them to the theologians and try to keep my faith as simple as possible.
And I adhere to OSAS. But I acknowledge there's a gaping hole in the logic of it that my imperfect human understanding can't reconcile. I used to run myself in circles with these questions. Now I leave them to the theologians and try to keep my faith as simple as possible.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 2:53 am to Jim Rockford
I agree. these are deep questions and may not be answerable except by Jesus Himself.
As someone who struggles with addiction I have issues reconciling my salvation in what sometimes feels like a constant state of disobedience. IE was I never actually saved if I don't have the power to overcome these things now?
Maybe I do have the power through Him, but I can't tap into it because I'm living in disobedience. But how do I become obedient if I can't tap into the power. So... I'm not saying we do that from similar "triggers" on similar topics but I 100 percent feel you with the circular reasoning.
People can certainly take issue with this theory.. but I think we make things more complicated than they need to be out of a lack of faith. And some sort of attempt to prove to ourselves that His unbelievable promises can be believed.
And perhaps OSAS doesn't DEPEND on the theory you mentioned? We just make it depend on it because other arguments are more difficult to justify? Does God rank sins like we do? Would lying have any different eternal consequences for an unbeliever than attempting to kill an entire race of people? We accept that Christians are capable of sin but then determine which ones those are. We make ourselves the authority on what "fallen away" looks like.
I take back my argument that Hitler couldn't have been saved as evidenced by the sins he committed (because I just don't know if that's true or not). I simply contend that he couldn't have been saved because there was no evidence that he was.
You'll know them by their fruit....
Not their sins.
As someone who struggles with addiction I have issues reconciling my salvation in what sometimes feels like a constant state of disobedience. IE was I never actually saved if I don't have the power to overcome these things now?
Maybe I do have the power through Him, but I can't tap into it because I'm living in disobedience. But how do I become obedient if I can't tap into the power. So... I'm not saying we do that from similar "triggers" on similar topics but I 100 percent feel you with the circular reasoning.
People can certainly take issue with this theory.. but I think we make things more complicated than they need to be out of a lack of faith. And some sort of attempt to prove to ourselves that His unbelievable promises can be believed.
And perhaps OSAS doesn't DEPEND on the theory you mentioned? We just make it depend on it because other arguments are more difficult to justify? Does God rank sins like we do? Would lying have any different eternal consequences for an unbeliever than attempting to kill an entire race of people? We accept that Christians are capable of sin but then determine which ones those are. We make ourselves the authority on what "fallen away" looks like.
I take back my argument that Hitler couldn't have been saved as evidenced by the sins he committed (because I just don't know if that's true or not). I simply contend that he couldn't have been saved because there was no evidence that he was.
You'll know them by their fruit....
Not their sins.
This post was edited on 11/14/23 at 3:18 am
Posted on 11/14/23 at 3:33 am to tgerb8
All were saved when Jesus hung on the cross. Now what we do with that salvation depends on what we do with free will. Do we accept Christ’s saving message and walk with him or not?
Sola Scriptura is bunk. Even Paul says to also rely on sacred tradition. There wasn’t “scripture” for about 300 years of the early church, just competing texts of people’s notes and stories about Jesus. Thanks to the Catholic Church scripture/the Bible was born.
Sola Scriptura is bunk. Even Paul says to also rely on sacred tradition. There wasn’t “scripture” for about 300 years of the early church, just competing texts of people’s notes and stories about Jesus. Thanks to the Catholic Church scripture/the Bible was born.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 4:24 am to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
Thanks to the Catholic Church scripture/the Bible was born.
You should thank Marcion of Sinope, who compiled the first Christian Bible. He was a wealthy trader, and donated a shitload of money to the church in Rome. Marcion was later excommunicated because he did not believe Yahweh, the god of the Jews, was connected to Jesus at all. In fact, he believed Yahweh to be an imperfect and evil creator god, while Jesus was the son of a much more distant and higher god. The Catholic Church compiled their own Bible in response to Marcion, but used Marcion’s Bible as a base.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 4:33 am to tgerb8
quote:
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
You sure?
Deuteronomy 20
quote:
16But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:54 am to Mid Iowa Tiger
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/15/24 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 11/14/23 at 5:58 am to tgerb8
If Hitler had been truly saved at age 20, he would not have done what he did.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:11 am to tgerb8
quote:
Maybe we should have a Religion board? Or maybe the "Help Board" is the incognito religion board? Never ventured.
No, the help board is for whiney libs to go complain that downvotes hurt their feelings.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:34 am to tgerb8
quote:
If the Bible is not the only authority, what are the others? Who decided they were authorities? and even if they were some how ordained truth, how could they possibly contradict the Bible instead of reinforcing it?
Voddie on why he believes the Bible
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:47 am to tgerb8
quote:
these are deep questions and may not be answerable except by Jesus Himself.
Agreed. Probably why religion threads used to get removed here.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:57 am to tgerb8
Great response in the original post! Agree completely that if Hitler had a genuine relationship with Christ then hatred would not be possible. It is written that the fruits of the spirit are love, patience, kindness, joy and peace. These fruits become evident in our daily walk when we are rooted in faith of Jesus Christ!
Posted on 11/14/23 at 6:59 am to tgerb8
quote:
When James said
Paul. Romans 7.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 7:39 am to tgerb8
quote:Boom. This is it. Drop the mic.
if Hitler was saved when he was 20 and had a true relationship with Christ he wouldn't have any desire to genocide a race of people.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 7:44 am to tgerb8
The “once” will take care of the “always”…
Spiritual rebirth is followed by fruits of the spirit.
Hence Matthew Chapter 18 gives instructions on how to banish an individual that doesn’t demonstrate Christian character.
1 John 2:19 tells us that heretics left the church but were never really of the church.
That’s why Jesus said in Matthew 7:23 depart from me, I never knew you.
Spiritual rebirth is followed by fruits of the spirit.
Hence Matthew Chapter 18 gives instructions on how to banish an individual that doesn’t demonstrate Christian character.
1 John 2:19 tells us that heretics left the church but were never really of the church.
That’s why Jesus said in Matthew 7:23 depart from me, I never knew you.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 8:32 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
OSAS depends on the No True Scotsman fallacy. If someone professes Christ and falls away, qed they were never truly saved in the first place.
Someone's actions can tell you a lot about their heart.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 8:39 am to Kafka
quote:
This isn't the Religion Board In fact, we don't have a religion board nvm, forget I said anything
No. I think this is the religion board. He’s in the right place.
Posted on 11/14/23 at 8:45 am to tgerb8
quote:
As someone who struggles with addiction I have issues reconciling my salvation in what sometimes feels like a constant state of disobedience.
Totally get that. To me I think one important factor is if you sin and outwardly push that sin onto others. If it's something you and God are working on then keep trucking and try daily to chip away at winning that battle. BUT if you bring others into your sin then that's different. Why I don't agree with the legalization of drugs, gay "marriage," etc etc.
The outward promotion and acceptance of sin to make yourself feel better about commiting said sin, imo is a slap in the face of God as you are letting the Devil work thru you.
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