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re: Do you believe that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation?
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:00 pm to S.E.C. Crazy
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:00 pm to S.E.C. Crazy
What about Democracy? Greek were practicing that long before Christianity. Judaism and Christianity had no tradition of Democracy. Even the Ten Commandments are nothing original and borrowed ideas from many other cultures. The only mention of anything Christian in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence is the "Year of our Lord". That was just one method of how people recorded dates. Just like the majority of the World (who are not Christians) use BC and AD for dates nowadays.
While we are at it, take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. It wasnt there when it was originally written, by a Christian leader no less, and was only added after WW2 because of the Cold War against the evil atheist Commies. The Pledge is to the Country not God. Conservatives like the good ole days and tradition, so why not bring back the original intent. LINK
While we are at it, take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. It wasnt there when it was originally written, by a Christian leader no less, and was only added after WW2 because of the Cold War against the evil atheist Commies. The Pledge is to the Country not God. Conservatives like the good ole days and tradition, so why not bring back the original intent. LINK
1
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:05 pm to themunch
We are privy to knowledge about our existence that Galileo, Di Vinci Newton and Jefferson were not. It is a stretch, given the rise in non-belief that coincides with increasing knowledge, that all would have been religious had they lived today.
Belief in a deity or deities was a default position for most of human history out of necessity.
Belief in a deity or deities was a default position for most of human history out of necessity.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:12 pm to Vegas Bengal
Here's Article XI of the Treaty of Tripoli for proper context:
In 1797 we were trying to rebuild from the Revolutionary War and we were doing everything we could to avoid war with the Barbary Pirates.
Since the Barbary Pirates were Muslim George Washington included this line in an attempt to appease them.
It didn't work and we went to war with them in 1801.
The Treaty was also edited in 1805 and the part about us not being a Christian nation was removed, but people seem to forget that.
quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
In 1797 we were trying to rebuild from the Revolutionary War and we were doing everything we could to avoid war with the Barbary Pirates.
Since the Barbary Pirates were Muslim George Washington included this line in an attempt to appease them.
It didn't work and we went to war with them in 1801.
The Treaty was also edited in 1805 and the part about us not being a Christian nation was removed, but people seem to forget that.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 9:13 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:14 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Belief in a deity or deities was a default position for most of human history out of necessity
This may be your belief but not theirs and it is a stretch for you to assume what a great intellect of other times might change his position based upon knowledge and not faith or wisdom.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:18 pm to themunch
quote:
This may be your belief but not theirs
Yeah, that's the point
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:21 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:And your position is that he should not be?
And your list includes Ben Franklin
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:22 pm to mouton
Short answer: No.
Long answer: The Founders believed in natural law. When you go back and read the Declaration, it says things like "to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitled them," and "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights," that shows the Founders' mindset.
They believed that human beings had rights given to them by God, regardless of whatever form God took, and that the government should be structured to allow people to exercise those rights.
Many of the Founders also believed that we need a moral people and that religious adherence was fundamental to that. It was Adams who said that "our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people," and my impression is that most of the other Founders agreed.
However, it's very clear in the Constitution that this is not an officially "Christian nation," although in a lot of states at the time of the founding there were laws against "blaspheming the Christian faith." And yes, a lot of the Founders were Deists, although we shouldn't confuse that to be non-religious. For example, I'm looking in a John Adams biography where Jefferson wrote to Adams on slavery that "indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever." (although he was obviously a hypocrite.)
Most of the country was Christian but you did have an intellectual class that like today's intellectual class, was not-so-Christian, although like Jefferson they certainly believed in a God."
Long answer: The Founders believed in natural law. When you go back and read the Declaration, it says things like "to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitled them," and "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights," that shows the Founders' mindset.
They believed that human beings had rights given to them by God, regardless of whatever form God took, and that the government should be structured to allow people to exercise those rights.
Many of the Founders also believed that we need a moral people and that religious adherence was fundamental to that. It was Adams who said that "our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people," and my impression is that most of the other Founders agreed.
However, it's very clear in the Constitution that this is not an officially "Christian nation," although in a lot of states at the time of the founding there were laws against "blaspheming the Christian faith." And yes, a lot of the Founders were Deists, although we shouldn't confuse that to be non-religious. For example, I'm looking in a John Adams biography where Jefferson wrote to Adams on slavery that "indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever." (although he was obviously a hypocrite.)
Most of the country was Christian but you did have an intellectual class that like today's intellectual class, was not-so-Christian, although like Jefferson they certainly believed in a God."
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:22 pm to Roger Klarvin
Would you like some more speculation in your bullshite coffee?
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:24 pm to maine82
Also, you can trace natural law not just to John Locke but to Catholic philosophers before him who were concerned about human rights. And natural law would have had a particular appeal to the Founders, since many of them were Protestant and would be very enthusiastic about the notion that their rights were not drawn from the King but from God Himself, with which there's an obvious contrast against the Catholic Church and the standing of the Pope.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 9:57 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:28 pm to arcalades
quote:
The vast majority of founding founders were deists, especially Paine.
I'm not even sure Paine was a Deist, he may have been an out-and-out atheist.
I will say this, Adams was definitely a Christian and my suspicion is that Washington was too, although we don't have hard evidence. David McCullough in his Adams biography cites that Washington regularly attended religious services and describes a moving scene in the first inaugural ceremony where Washington is out on the balcony in Philadelphia, swears on the Bible, kisses it and holds it out to the crowd. We don't have any official declarations on G.W. but my gut says he was in the Christian camp.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:29 pm to Meauxjeaux
quote:
Meauxjeaux
Are you David Barton?
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:37 pm to maine82
Love the discussion
No unity on the subject though
It it interesting how different things were then compared to now relative to acknowledging the creator among our leaders.
Today it's not done
No unity on the subject though
It it interesting how different things were then compared to now relative to acknowledging the creator among our leaders.
Today it's not done
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:38 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
quote:
In God we trust
Adopted as the official motto in 1956.
And what year was the much hailed "wall of separation between church and state" first given weight by the SCOTUS?
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:40 pm to maine82
paine was certainly not a deist or a christian
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:41 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:
Tripoli
Do you understand why this was included? It's very conspicuous that it was included
Because the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Why would that be such a big deal to the Tripoleans?
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 9:51 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:46 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
And this is completely ignoring how many of the brilliant minds of the past would have dismissed religious belief given our current knowledge base, which based on our current sample size we can safely say it would have been a decent enough number.
Link?
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:49 pm to USMCTiger03
quote:
And your position is that he should not be?
Yes, that is my position
Ben Franklin was one of the most famous and outspoken deists of the 18th century.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 9:51 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:50 pm to maine82
Argument: The country was founded as a Christian Nation, at the very least a de facto one. Given the limitations on the federal government and the powers of the Constitution, what did the 1st Amendment mean in the context of the state constitutions at and around that time:
Delaware Constitution of 1776:
Constitution of New Hampshire
The Constitution of Connecticut (1818)
Cont'd
Delaware Constitution of 1776:
quote:
ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:
" I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced."
And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:
" I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
Constitution of New Hampshire
quote:
June 2, 1784
PART I. - THE BILL OF RIGHTS, ARTICLE I
V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship GOD according to the dictates of his own conscience, and reason; and no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained in his person, liberty or estate for worshipping GOD, in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession, sentiments or persuasion; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or disturb others, in their religious worship.
VI. As morality and piety, rightly grounded on evangelical principles, will give the best and greatest security to government, and will lay in the hearts of men the strongest obligations to due subjection; and as the knowledge of these, is most likely to be propagated through a society by the institution of the public worship of the DEITY, and of public instruction in morality and religion; therefore, to promote those important purposes, the people of this state have a right to impower, and do hereby fully impower the legislature to authorize from time to time, the several towns, parishes, bodies corporate, or religious societies within this state, to make adequate provision at their own expence, for the support and maintenance of public protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality
The Constitution of Connecticut (1818)
quote:
PREAMBLE
The people of Connecticut acknowledging with gratitude, the good providence of God, in having permitted them to enjoy a free government, do, in order more effectually to define, secure, and perpetuate the liberties, rights and privileges which they have derived from their ancestors, hereby, after a careful consideration and revision, ordain and establish the following constitution and form of civil government.
ARTICLE SEVENTH. OF RELIGION.
Sec. 1. It being the duty of all men to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the Universe, and their right to render that worship, in the mode most consistent with the dictates of their consciences; no person shall by law be compelled to join or support, nor be classed with, or associated to, any congregation, church or religious association. But every person now belonging to such congregation, church, or religious association, shall remain a member thereof, until he shall have separated himself therefrom, in the manner hereinafter provided. And each and every society or denomination of christians in this state, shall have and enjoy the same and equal powers, rights and privileges; and shall have power and authority to support and maintain the ministers or teachers of their respective denominations, and to build and repair houses for public worship, by a tax on the members of any such society only, to be laid by a major vote of the legal voters assembled at any society meeting, warned and held according to law, or in any other manner.
Sec. 2. If any person shall choose to separate himself from the society or denomination of christians to which he may belong, and shall leave a written notice thereof with the clerk of such society, he shall thereupon be no longer liable for any future expences which may be incurred by said society.
Cont'd
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:51 pm to USMCTiger03
Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776
Constitution of Maryland
Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (1780)
Wow. Unequivocal.
quote:
II. That all men have a natural and unalienable right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences and understanding:...Nor can any man, who acknowledges the being of a God, be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments or peculiar mode of religious worship : And that no authority can or ought to be vested in, or assumed by any power whatever, that shall in any case interfere with, or in any manner controul, the right of conscience in the free exercise of religious worship.
SECT. 10. A quorum of the house of representatives shall consist of...And each member, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz: I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.
Constitution of Maryland
quote:
November 11, 1776
XXXIII. That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to him; all persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice; unless, under colour of religion, any man shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others, in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any particular place of worship, or any particular ministry; yet the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general and equal tax for the support of the Christian religion; leaving to each individual the power of appointing the payment over of the money, collected from him, to the support of any particular place of worship or minister, or for the benefit of the poor of his own denomination, or the poor in general of any particular county: but the churches, chapels, glebes, and all other property now belonging to the church of England, ought to remain to the church of England forever.
XXXV. That no other test or qualification ought to be required, on admission to any office of trust or profit, than such oath of support and fidelity to this State, and such oath of office, as shall be directed by this Convention or the Legislature of this State, and a declaration of a belief in the Christian religion.
Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (1780)
quote:
Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.
Article III. [As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.
Article I. [Any person chosen governor, lieutenant governor, councillor, senator or representative, and accepting the trust, shall before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.--
"I, A. B., do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth; and that I am seised and possessed, in my own right, of the property required by the constitution as one qualification for the office or place to which I am elected."
Wow. Unequivocal.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:51 pm to USMCTiger03
quote:
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
I see it!
ETA: Dammit - that was intended to be directly below Klarvin's statement quoted below, but old MC punked me!
"Ben Franklin was one of the most famous and outspoken deists of the 18th century."
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 9:55 pm
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