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Posted on 9/16/14 at 4:57 pm to BigJim
quote:
The term the founders used was "natural rights" which do derive from christian political philosophy at least as far back as Aquinas.
natural rights theory doesn't derive from christian political philosophy. socrates predates christ by 400 years, and he didn't make it up either. hellenistic christian writers certainly used a lot of the same language and concepts as the greek natural law theorists and employed hebrew natural law philosophy/theology. but to say natural rights derive from Aquinas misses the big picture.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 4:58 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 5:02 pm to McLemore
quote:Irrelevant.
natural rights theory doesn't derive from christian political philosophy. socrates predates christ by 400 years
The founders were from states founded on Christian Principle.
Emphasis on religious freedom was based in part on the simple premise that one Christian Sect in one state could not influence activities relative to religion in another state.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 5:04 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The founders were from states founded on Christian Principle.
All one has to know is that the first universities were started primarily to educate preachers.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 5:07 pm to monsterballads
Of course not. We didn't set up a Theocracy or else every one would have been forced to be a Christian, and since even God doesn't FORCE ANYONE to be his SONS THROUGH REDEMPTION IN CHRIST, why would anyone want a Theocracy as was in place in England, a place they deserted.
Having said that, the government, in every measure, was founded under the precepts and freedoms of God, by Godly men, who didn't think it proper to force their views upon all, but who at the same time made ZERO LAWS keeping christian thought out of the government square or government policies.
The only restriction was in keeping the government from establishing an official state religion.
Having said that, the government, in every measure, was founded under the precepts and freedoms of God, by Godly men, who didn't think it proper to force their views upon all, but who at the same time made ZERO LAWS keeping christian thought out of the government square or government policies.
The only restriction was in keeping the government from establishing an official state religion.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 5:51 pm to mouton
It was founded as a nation of Christians (which also included deists, Jews, and misc others). Our laws reflect Judeo-Christian values. The Anglican Brits snidely referred to the Revolution as the Presbyterian Revolt. Deists, while not in the center of Christian orthodoxy, did adhere to many if not most Christian moral and ethical beliefs, so one could say they were influenced in their thinking. It is simply not true that our founding principles and many of our Founding Fathers and Mothers were not people of faith and religion. No matter how badly the current Left/Progressives would like to re-write history, we were a nation of Christians (and others). And that made a difference in how we came to be organized and governed.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 5:58 pm to monsterballads
Interesting quote from the context.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 6:14 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Irrelevant.
it's not irrelevant to the post to which i was replying, and i don't take issue with your post.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 6:15 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 6:38 pm to Revelator
quote:
All one has to know is that the first universities were started primarily to educate preachers.
How far has Harvard come from that?
Posted on 9/16/14 at 6:47 pm to mouton
The United States was founded as a free republic, and freedom of religion is included under the banner. While the majority religion of the day (and currently) in America was Christianity the nation was not founded on Christian principles. One could argue it was founded on the principles of monotheistic deism, but the theology of Christianity is not inherently supported by the founding principles. What could be used as evidence of a Christian nation could be used to support an argument for this nation being one of any monotheistic belief system.
For reference, of the 56 signers of the DOI only 27 can conclusively be shown from history to have been practicing Christians as adults. Almost a third were outspoken opponents of aspects of Christian theology. The only thing that can be said is that all but a few would have claimed belief in a deity in some sense.
For reference, of the 56 signers of the DOI only 27 can conclusively be shown from history to have been practicing Christians as adults. Almost a third were outspoken opponents of aspects of Christian theology. The only thing that can be said is that all but a few would have claimed belief in a deity in some sense.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 6:47 pm to mouton
Nope...
""....the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Treaty with Tripoli, unanimously approved by the US Senate, June 17 1797"
""....the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Treaty with Tripoli, unanimously approved by the US Senate, June 17 1797"
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 6:48 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 7:05 pm to Meauxjeaux
quote:
Meauxjeaux
Pretty dishonest sequence of posts
The Christian Nation Myth
quote:
"In the end what we have is a group of people manipulating quotes from centuries past to convey the idea every founding father who believed in God was an orthodox Christian. The reality is that, based on overwhelming evidence, many of those claimed by Christianity were either on the fence about God, strict deists or so far removed from orthodoxy that most of those claiming them would condemn their theology to Hell."
For instance, John Adams claimed Christianity but explicitly denied the trinity, the doctrine of Hell, endorsed multiple paths to God and was a universalist. Not a single mainstream Christian denomination today would consider him anything other than a heretic bound for damnation. To turn around and claim him as evidence of a Christian nation, especially given that he EXPLICITLY said himself that it was not, is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 7:08 pm
Posted on 9/16/14 at 7:14 pm to Meauxjeaux
quote:
The fact that the Christian founders of this country were mature enough to self-impose structure that would assure that ALL religions could be practiced freely is probably the most astounding man-made achievement in the history of civilization.
Again, this is a shocking level of dishonesty.
You are claiming as Christians men whose theology would have them damned for Hell according to EVERY SINGLE SIGNIFICANT CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION ON EARTH. You cannot argue that we were founded as a Christian nation when many of said founders either explicitly denounced Christianity or claimed something wholly different from the ideas followed by those making the argument.
What you are doing is the equivalent of someone 200 years from now claiming the Westboro Baptist church as valid evidence for the hatred preached by Christianity. Yes, they call themselves Christians. No rational person making an honest argument can use them to form an argument about Christianity or it's prominence however, because they simply DO NOT adhere to any form of mainstream Christianity.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 8:22 pm to germandawg
quote:
""....the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Treaty with Tripoli, unanimously approved by the US Senate, June 17 1797"
Do you understand why this was included? It's very conspicuous that it was included.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 8:31 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
For reference, of the 56 signers of the DOI only 27 can conclusively be shown from history to have been practicing Christians as adults. Almost a third were outspoken opponents of aspects of Christian theology. The only thing that can be said is that all but a few would have claimed belief in a deity in some sense.
Liar.
quote:
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire
Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor
Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Posted on 9/16/14 at 8:43 pm to USMCTiger03
quote:
practicing Christians as adults.
Read plz
And your list includes Ben Franklin
Posted on 9/16/14 at 8:47 pm to USMCTiger03
And this is completely ignoring how many of the brilliant minds of the past would have dismissed religious belief given our current knowledge base, which based on our current sample size we can safely say it would have been a decent enough number.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 8:56 pm to Gator5220
quote:
Do you understand why this was included? It's very conspicuous that it was included
Because the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Posted on 9/16/14 at 8:57 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
many of the brilliant minds of the past would have dismissed religious belief given our current knowledge base
wut?
Posted on 9/16/14 at 8:58 pm to Roger Klarvin
Don't bring the level of your argument up to the point of discussion. Keep it to the lowest point that the "attorney" USMC brought it down to and resort to name calling.
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