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re: Do you believe that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation?

Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:55 pm to
Posted by maine82
Member since Aug 2011
3320 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:55 pm to
quote:

For instance, John Adams claimed Christianity but explicitly denied the trinity, the doctrine of Hell, endorsed multiple paths to God and was a universalist. Not a single mainstream Christian denomination today would consider him anything other than a heretic bound for damnation. To turn around and claim him as evidence of a Christian nation, especially given that he EXPLICITLY said himself that it was not, is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst.


I'd like to see evidence that John Adams had those doubts. In the meanwhile, I've been finishing McCullough's biography from Adams, and I would like to point out this passage:

quote:

A departure from Jefferson's prevailing silence in Congress came late that summer when he stood in opposition to a proposal for a fast day, and in so doing appeared to cast aspersions on Christianity, to which Adams reacted sharply. Benjamin Rush reminded Adams of the incident in a letter written years later.

You rose and defended the motion, and in reply to Mr. Jefferson's objections to Christianity you said you were sorry to hear such sentiments from a gentleman whom you so highly respected and with whom you agreed upon so many subjects, and that it was the only instance you had ever known of a man of sound sense and real genius that was an enemy to Christianity.


The McCullough biography is replete with evidence of Adams' faith. By the way, as I mentioned earlier, the Washington inaugural as described by McCullough:

quote:

Washington said he was ready. Adams bowed and led the way to the outer balcony, in full view of the throng in the streets. People were cheering and waving from below, and from windows and rooftops as far as the eye could see. Washington bowed once, then a second time.

Fourteen years earlier, it had been Adams who called on the Continental Congress to make the tall Virginian commander-in-chief of the army. Now he stood at Washington's side as Washington, his right hand on the Bible, repeated the oath of office as read by Chancellor Robert R. Livingston of New York, who had also been a member of the Continental Congress.

In a low voice Washington solemnly swore to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States." Then, as not specified in the Constitution, he added, "So help me God," and kissed the Bible, thereby establishing his own first presidential tradition.

"It is done," Livingston said, and turning to the crowd, cried out, "Long live George Washington, President of the United States."

With the crowd in raptures, cannon pounding, church bells clanging, Washington bowed still again and then, Adams at his side, moved back to deliver his inaugural address to a seated Congress.


For the record, I understand why David Barton is looked down upon, but McCullough is damn near unimpeachable. And there's a lot of intellectual dishonesty on both sides. I don't think Barton is completely honest but I don't think the crowd that likes to over-stress the Founders' Deism and pluck their own quotes out of context are any better.
Posted by League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
10340 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 9:55 pm to
quote:

Of course it was founded as a Christian nation, and that fact is as plain as the name of Jesus, which appears MANY times in our Constitution.


quote:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth....

I wonder which Lord the Constitution was referring to?

So yeah, Jesus was mentioned in the Constitution. And since they were a brand new nation they could have included him or not (just as in the Treaty of Tripoli that they later rescinded). They chose to include him for obvious reasons. The new nation recognized Christ as Lord
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46555 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:01 pm to
The date was September 17th, 1787 Anno Domini (AD) which is latin for "In the year of the Lord".

You should probably never post again. I'm embarrassed for you.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 10:03 pm
Posted by maine82
Member since Aug 2011
3320 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:03 pm to
quote:

Wow. Unequivocal.


You're confusing state Constitutions with the federal Constitution. The federal Constitution didn't make a declaration on Christianity, and I think it can be presumed that it was expected states would catch up to the federal standard. Also, most of the Constitutions you're citing were drawn up before the federal Constitution was drafted and ratified.

And again, the states also had laws that banned people from criticizing or even critiquing the Christian faith, and that included people who may have been Catholic and offered critiques on Protestantism. But we wouldn't parade those laws around today.
This post was edited on 9/16/14 at 10:06 pm
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46555 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:05 pm to
quote:

Wow. Unequivocal.


Someone doesn't know...frick, I can't even narrow this one down. You just don't know much of anything.

I was going to insult your lack of differentiation between the state and the fed, but goddammit that just doesn't do your posts justice.
Posted by USMCTiger03
Member since Sep 2007
71176 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:11 pm to
quote:

You're confusing state Constitutions with the federal Constitution. The federal Constitution didn't make a declaration on Christianity, and I think it can be presumed that it was expected states would catch up to the federal standard. Also, most of the Constitutions you're citing were drawn up before the federal Constitution was drafted and ratified.
Such a pedestrian response.
Posted by maine82
Member since Aug 2011
3320 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:13 pm to
quote:

Such a pedestrian response.


And yet accurate.
Posted by wmr
North of Dickson, South of Herman's
Member since Mar 2009
32518 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:14 pm to
Even if it wasn't, it was founded by people with traditions and work ethic. We no longer have either.

frick the Christian vs atheist dichotomy. Modern Americans are shite weak-minded useless consumers for the most part.
Posted by USMCTiger03
Member since Sep 2007
71176 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:18 pm to
quote:

Someone doesn't know...frick, I can't even narrow this one down. You just don't know much of anything.

I was going to insult your lack of differentiation between the state and the fed, but goddammit that just doesn't do your posts justice.


I've overestimated your ability for even basic comprehension. Ignorance like yours is the reason I don't post much here, i.e., I don't have the time or inclination to educate you.

Let's see, I posted the name and date of the STATE constitutions, does your brain really think for one second that I have a "lack of differentiation between the state and the fed"?

Your inability to grasp the nuance of the point, i.e., a federal constitution that has little/no bearing on state governments, state constitutions that contain strong language in favor, even requiring christian beliefs, which result in a de facto christian founded nation, well that's that.
Posted by maine82
Member since Aug 2011
3320 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:19 pm to
By the way, what does it matter to you that the country was or was not founded as a "Christian" country? Does a nuanced take on the matter threaten your faith in some way? I'm with you half way and I don't like the rewriting of American history by leftist academics any less than any other conservative, but you have to be intellectually honest in your arguments.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46555 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:28 pm to
quote:

I've overestimated your ability for even basic comprehension. Ignorance like yours is the reason I don't post much here, i.e., I don't have the time or inclination to educate you.

Let's see, I posted the name and date of the STATE constitutions, does your brain really think for one second that I have a "lack of differentiation between the state and the fed"?

Your inability to grasp the nuance of the point, i.e., a federal constitution that has little/no bearing on state governments, state constitutions that contain strong language in favor, even requiring christian beliefs, which result in a de facto christian founded nation, well that's that.


That's a pretty long winded attempt at defending a false equivalency.

Yawn.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46555 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:29 pm to
quote:

By the way, what does it matter to you that the country was or was not founded as a "Christian" country? Does a nuanced take on the matter threaten your faith in some way? I'm with you half way and I don't like the rewriting of American history by leftist academics any less than any other conservative, but you have to be intellectually honest in your arguments.


It matters to those who wish to base legislation on their theology.
Posted by S.E.C. Crazy
Alabama
Member since Feb 2013
7905 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:37 pm to
We are not a democracy, as you stated, but a republic.

If you read the Old Testament you would find that God didn't want to set Judges/Kings up over Israel, but instead had a form of democracy, but Israel demanded a King and so they got an Evil King that King David had to destroy.

I can get you the verse, and enlighten you.

God didn't borrow ideas from anyone, that just stupid people believing lies.

It was added because our congress ( we the people ) decided it was worthy to be added.
Posted by League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
10340 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:41 pm to
quote:

The date was September 17th, 1787 Anno Domini (AD) which is latin for "In the year of the Lord".

You should probably never post again. I'm embarrassed for you.

Wait, are you saying all nations recognized Anno Domini in 1787? Or just the Christian ones?

You might want to walk that WAY back, because its reveals your atheistic ignorance. But you do that often in these debates, so you probably will try to defend it in some way
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46555 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:51 pm to
It's the designation used for both the Julian and Gregorian calendars. By the 18th century, all of Europe, Russia, much of western Asia and Africa and the European colonies in the Americas were using the Gregorian designation. It only stands to reason the Gregorian designation was the one they naturally chose once the colonies broke from England.

Are you seriously trying to make a point out of this? You REALLY believe they chose to use the fricking Gregorian Calendar because of Jesus?

Christ (pun intended)
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111609 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 10:56 pm to
quote:

Wait, are you saying all nations recognized Anno Domini in 1787? Or just the Christian ones? You might want to walk that WAY back, because its reveals your atheistic ignorance. But you do that often in these debates, so you probably will try to defend it in some way

Not sure if serious.
Posted by stormy
Member since Sep 2014
578 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 11:01 pm to
It wasn't proved either way, because no one could agree. That is why in God we trust. IT TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT ON THE MONEY
Posted by darkhorse
Member since Aug 2012
7701 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 11:13 pm to
quote:

I tried to explain to her that most of the founding fathers were Deists and not Christians.



Totally not true. This is simply a false statement that is being "preached" to combat Christianity. It's a relatively new tactic and has been a great tool for the anti-christian movement.

quote:

Do you believe that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation?



Without a doubt it was.

There is no separation of church and state. The founding fathers did not want a church of the united states (Church of England).



Posted by Socratics
Virginia Beach
Member since Dec 2013
2464 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 11:27 pm to
quote:

Was having an interesting conversation about this with someone on Facebook. I tried to explain to her that most of the founding fathers were Deists and not Christians. She obviously did not believe me even after I provided quotes from several of the founding fathers. What are your thoughts on this?


I feel like everyone is this thread is using a different definition of what is a "Christian Nation".

1) What is a Christian Nation for the purpose of this Thread

2) What are "Christian Principles"?

The Bible itself seems to work against arguments that this nation was founded on christian base. The bible supersedes anything else as far as Christianity goes.

Thomas Aquinas base his views of natural law from Greek philosophers before him and not the bible. He was merely a Philosopher who just happened to be christian in regards to natural law.
Posted by USMCTiger03
Member since Sep 2007
71176 posts
Posted on 9/16/14 at 11:29 pm to
quote:

By the way, what does it matter to you that the country was or was not founded as a "Christian" country? Does a nuanced take on the matter threaten your faith in some way? I'm with you half way and I don't like the rewriting of American history by leftist academics any less than any other conservative, but you have to be intellectually honest in your arguments.

No, I think the fact of it is pretty overboard, i.e., the religious standards imposed by the various state constitutions. But the facts are there and that's what we're here to discuss, correct?
quote:

but you have to be intellectually honest in your arguments.
Which is completely what I have offered.
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