re: Anybody else glad Neocons are trending out?

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Dessert Storm was a legit war in which he got in and got out.

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You know how people continually asked why HW never went after Saddam to remove him?

They stopped asking those questions sometime around 2006.

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What "pro-family" legislation do you object to?

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I object to subsidized child care, for starters.

So child tax credits are tantamount to Christians forcing their agenda on you?

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So child tax credits are tantamount to Christians forcing their agenda on you?

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Depends.

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they are both basically the same

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Oh, come on. Sheesh.

Let's have some historical context here. The neoconservative movement had virtually no influence on U.S. foreign policy prior to Reagan, except perhaps for the passage of the Jackson-Vanik Amendment into a trade act under Ford in 1974.

Under Reagan, they had some influence, but not that much, as realists like James Baker held the day. Under Bush41, the neoconservatives didn't have much influence on anyone but Dan Quayle, who let it be remembered, was not a very consequential VP.

But let's go ahead for simplicity's sake and take U.S. foreign policy from 1947-1981, and compare it to U.S. foreign policy from 1981-2016. Did neoconservative influence really make anything worse?



The U.S. population went from 144.1 million in 1947 to 230.0 million in 1981, and from there to 323.4 million in 2016. There were almost 95,000 Americans who died overseas during the first period, and the U.S. spent about 7-8% of GDP per year on defense. During the second period, when the U.S. population was about 50% greater, there were less than 7,500 Americans who died overseas, and the U.S. spent about 4-5% of GDP per year on defense.

People try to paint U.S. foreign policy as a disaster, but there were tremendous benefits from 1947 to present, and especially from 1981 to about 2010, when the rest of the world became much freer and more prosperous.

If you want a return to the 1920s and 1930s, that's fine, but remember, first of all, that our foreign policy didn't work out so well for us back then. Second of all, even if you think we spend too much on defense and have an unjustifiable number of casualties, don't lose perspective and blow it out of proportion as some horrible anti-American communist plot.

Pretty much any 40-year period of American history you can point toward racked up a higher proportional casualty rate than what we've experienced over the past 40 years. Foreign policy wise, the past 40 years have not gone that badly at all.

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Reagan not a neocon at all! Where'd he go to war?!?! Nowhere! Dude cut taxes and shrunk the size of the federal govt by 40%! HW wasn't a neocon either. Dessert Storm was a legit war in which he got in and got out. Neither of those guys went to war in the name of democracy!



Grenada says hello "history major".

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Timeline of United States military operations

1981: El Salvador: After a guerrilla offensive against the government of El Salvador, additional U.S. military advisers were sent to El Salvador, bringing the total to approximately 55, to assist in training government forces in counterinsurgency.[RL30172]

1981: Libya: First Gulf of Sidra incident, on August 19, 1981, U.S. planes based on the carrier USS Nimitz shot down two Libyan jets over the Gulf of Sidra after one of the Libyan jets had fired a heat-seeking missile. The United States periodically held freedom of navigation exercises in the Gulf of Sidra, claimed by Libya as territorial waters but considered international waters by the United States.[RL30172]

1982: Sinai: On March 19, 1982, President Reagan reported the deployment of military personnel and equipment to participate in the Multinational Force and Observers in the Sinai. Participation had been authorized by the Multinational Force and Observers Resolution, Public Law 97-132.[RL30172]

1982: Lebanon: Multinational Force in Lebanon, on August 21, 1982, President Reagan reported the dispatch of 800 Marines to serve in the multinational force to assist in the withdrawal of members of the Palestine Liberation force from Beirut. The Marines left September 20, 1982.[RL30172]

1982–1983: Lebanon: On September 29, 1982, President Reagan reported the deployment of 1200 marines to serve in a temporary multinational force to facilitate the restoration of Lebanese government sovereignty. On September 29, 1983, Congress passed the Multinational Force in Lebanon Resolution (P.L. 98-119) authorizing the continued participation for eighteen months.[RL30172]

1983: Egypt: After a Libyan plane bombed a city in Sudan on March 18, 1983, and Sudan and Egypt appealed for assistance, the United States dispatched an AWACS electronic surveillance plane to Egypt.[RL30172]

1983: Grenada: Operation Urgent Fury, citing the increased threat of Soviet and Cuban influence and noting the development of an international airport following a coup d'état and alignment with the Soviet Union and Cuba, the U.S. invades the island nation of Grenada.[RL30172]

1983–1989: Honduras: In July 1983, the United States undertook a series of exercises in Honduras that some believed might lead to conflict with Nicaragua. On March 25, 1986, unarmed U.S. military helicopters and crewmen ferried Honduran troops to the Nicaraguan border to repel Nicaraguan troops.[RL30172]

1983: Chad: On August 8, 1983, President Reagan reported the deployment of two AWACS electronic surveillance planes and eight F-15 fighter planes and ground logistical support forces to assist Chad against Libyan and rebel forces.[RL30172]

1984: Persian Gulf: On June 5, 1984, Saudi Arabian jet fighter planes, aided by intelligence from a U.S. AWACS electronic surveillance aircraft and fueled by a U.S. KC-10 tanker, shot down two Iranian fighter planes over an area of the Persian Gulf proclaimed as a protected zone for shipping.[RL30172]

1985: Italy: On October 10, 1985, U.S. Navy pilots intercepted an Egyptian airliner and forced it to land in Sicily. The airliner was carrying the hijackers of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro who had killed an American citizen during the hijacking.[RL30172]

1986: Libya: Action in the Gulf of Sidra (1986), on March 26, 1986, President Reagan reported on March 24 and 25, U.S. forces, while engaged in freedom of navigation exercises around the Gulf of Sidra, had been attacked by Libyan missiles and the United States had responded with missiles.[RL30172]

1986: Libya: Operation El Dorado Canyon, on April 16, 1986, President Reagan reported that U.S. air and naval forces had conducted bombing strikes on terrorist facilities and military installations in the Libyan capitol of Tripoli, claiming that Libyan leader Col. Muammar Gaddafi was responsible for a bomb attack at a German disco that killed two U.S. soldiers.[RL30172]

1986: Bolivia: U.S. Army personnel and aircraft assisted Bolivia in anti-drug operations.[RL30172]

1987: Persian Gulf: USS Stark was struck on May 17 by two Exocet antiship missiles fired from a Dassault Mirage F1 of the Iraqi Air Force during the Iran–Iraq War, killing 37 U.S. Navy sailors.

1987: Persian Gulf: Operation Nimble Archer. Attacks on two Iranian oil platforms in the Persian Gulf by United States Navy forces on October 19. The attack was a response to Iran's October 16, 1987 attack on the MV Sea Isle City, a reflagged Kuwaiti oil tanker at anchor off Kuwait, with a Silkworm missile.

1987–1988: Persian Gulf: Operation Earnest Will. After the Iran–Iraq War (the Tanker War phase) resulted in several military incidents in the Persian Gulf, the United States increased U.S. joint military forces operations in the Persian Gulf and adopted a policy of reflagging and escorting Kuwaiti oil tankers through the Persian Gulf to protect them from Iraqi and Iranian attacks. President Reagan reported that U.S. ships had been fired upon or struck mines or taken other military action on September 21 (Iran Ajr), October 8, and October 19, 1987 and April 18 (Operation Praying Mantis), July 3, and July 14, 1988. The United States gradually reduced its forces after a cease-fire between Iran and Iraq on August 20, 1988.[RL30172] It was the largest naval convoy operation since World War II.[8]

1987–1988: Persian Gulf: Operation Prime Chance was a United States Special Operations Command operation intended to protect U.S.-flagged oil tankers from Iranian attack during the Iran–Iraq War. The operation took place roughly at the same time as Operation Earnest Will.

1988: Persian Gulf: Operation Praying Mantis was the April 18, 1988 action waged by U.S. naval forces in retaliation for the Iranian mining of the Persian Gulf and the subsequent damage to an American warship.

1988: Honduras: Operation Golden Pheasant was an emergency deployment of U.S. troops to Honduras in 1988, as a result of threatening actions by the forces of the (then socialist) Nicaraguans.

1988: USS Vincennes shoot-down of Iran Air Flight 655.

1988: Panama: In mid-March and April 1988, during a period of instability in Panama and as the United States increased pressure on Panamanian head of state General Manuel Noriega to resign, the United States sent 1,000 troops to Panama, to "further safeguard the canal, US lives, property and interests in the area." The forces supplemented 10,000 U.S. military personnel already in the Panama Canal Zone.[RL30172]

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One day, maybe, you'll figure out you were scammed by the most obvious con artists to ever run for president.

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The OP is a fraud.

The entertaining part is that he's too ignorant to realize he's bragging about being more fully entrenched in the propaganda than most who post to this board.

He'll fit in perfectly.

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Moar wars,

Obama bombed 7 nations.
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less rights,

Let's restrict gun rights and shut down other opinions.
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moar bill paying to kick down the road.

$20 trillion in debt. Thanks Obama for half of it.
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Sign me up.

I'll bet you have been signed up for years.

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Not saying Obama's war policy was anywhere where i would like it but the neocon nation building in the middle east caused some serious problems, violently and financially.

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Not saying Obama's war policy was anywhere where i would like it but the neocon nation building in the middle east caused some serious problems, violently and financially.

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That is what they wanted.