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Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:06 pm to DelU249
I got the sense while watching the movie that Loki's scepter had kind of a One Ring aspect to it, in that it would try to get back to it's master. It makes sense, if Thanos originally gave an Infinity Stone to Loki, to have a back up plan for getting it back. Thus the "AI" inside Loki's scepter. Ultron was a perversion of that AI, so it knew about the mind stone (source of it's power) and was probably influenced, if perhaps not "consciously", by it's original programming. When the Vision came into being and Ultron destroyed, Thanos' backup plan to have the Mind Stone returned to him had failed, which is why he's going to take matters into his own hands.
But these are all underlying threads that connect the entire narrative that will culminate in Infinity War. They don't need to be explained in AoU, because Ultron and the Avenger's struggles are the key plots in this movie. I'm sure Thanos will monologue at some point, pointing out all the steps that led us to that point.
ETA: I enjoyed the hell out of this movie too. I would personally probably rank it above Avengers I, just a bit below GotG and Winter Soldier.
But these are all underlying threads that connect the entire narrative that will culminate in Infinity War. They don't need to be explained in AoU, because Ultron and the Avenger's struggles are the key plots in this movie. I'm sure Thanos will monologue at some point, pointing out all the steps that led us to that point.
ETA: I enjoyed the hell out of this movie too. I would personally probably rank it above Avengers I, just a bit below GotG and Winter Soldier.
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 12:08 pm
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:09 pm to TigerNutwhack
So at some point, Thanos is ripping off Vision's head and giving that stone the five finger discount.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:10 pm to DelU249
There has been some pretty good discussion of this movie going on in this thread. It has been obscured by bluster from different posters here and there but I'm enjoying it.
So here is my poor attempt to add to it. I'll use one of Fox Molder's post as a good jumping off point:
1 - Even though I really enjoyed the movie (as you did also I think judging from your posts) I have to agree with your first point. I love action and big fights. But I think they dragged it on a little too long on a couple of occasions. The Hulk/IM fight was great. And most of the fights where someone or more than one hero were fighting Ultron were pretty good. But I thought the street chase scene wasn't very original and kind of bogged down.
2- I agree that Iron Man was presented as an a-hole. But I don't see that necessarily as a bad thing. The whole Marvel/DC thing going back to the 60's was always said to be that Marvel had more conflicted characters while DC had more boy scouts. Now, that's been muddled a lot over the years and sometimes they go overboard (Heck, they made IM so bad in the comics one time they had to kill him off and bring in a teenage version from another reality until the next big reboot came along). But I think having heroes who are not all 100% white hats is not necessarily a bad thing.
So here is my poor attempt to add to it. I'll use one of Fox Molder's post as a good jumping off point:
quote:
1. too much and/or too fast (save for the captain, arrrrgh)
2. iron man is an a-hole
1 - Even though I really enjoyed the movie (as you did also I think judging from your posts) I have to agree with your first point. I love action and big fights. But I think they dragged it on a little too long on a couple of occasions. The Hulk/IM fight was great. And most of the fights where someone or more than one hero were fighting Ultron were pretty good. But I thought the street chase scene wasn't very original and kind of bogged down.
2- I agree that Iron Man was presented as an a-hole. But I don't see that necessarily as a bad thing. The whole Marvel/DC thing going back to the 60's was always said to be that Marvel had more conflicted characters while DC had more boy scouts. Now, that's been muddled a lot over the years and sometimes they go overboard (Heck, they made IM so bad in the comics one time they had to kill him off and bring in a teenage version from another reality until the next big reboot came along). But I think having heroes who are not all 100% white hats is not necessarily a bad thing.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:21 pm to TigerNutwhack
I thought it was a good movie, but i left wanting a more badass Ultron.
I watched the Marvels Avengers Assemble cartoon yesterday with my son and the Ultron from there and the story about how he became was much better.
My question is how did the Vision pick up Thor's hammer?
Is it b/c he is truly worthy, or is it b/c when Thor put the lightning to him to finish the process, he was created in some sort of way by Thor and has part of Thor in him?
I have a hard time thinking only truly worthy people pick it up. Why would Cap move it a little? Is he just a little worthy, not truly worthy? If he was a little more worthy, would it have moved a little more? Regardless, that was a cool scene seeing Thor's face.
I think it's obvious that the scepter is a device capable of messing with the mind of whoever touches it, all done by Thanos.
I do not think it has affected Iron Man or Hulk though, as previously stated. I think those two are so tired of the burden of being a superhero and being scared of being responsible for innocent peoples deaths, that they would do something desperate like create Ultron so they don't have to do it anymore. I think they are both maxed out emotionally and stress wise that it caused them to make bad judgements.
And Iron Man is a terd head, always has been, always will. I don't know why some of you are so butt hurt about him being an arse. That's who he is.
Just got back from DisneyWorld last week. Probably saw a couple hundred Captain America shirts. Boys, girls, adults, everyone had them. Didn't' see one Iron Man shirt, and saw 2 kids with Hulk shirts.
The world loves Cap, and there are going to be a lot of angry people when he dies that don't know it's coming. There will be much more hate for Iron Man to come.
I watched the Marvels Avengers Assemble cartoon yesterday with my son and the Ultron from there and the story about how he became was much better.
My question is how did the Vision pick up Thor's hammer?
Is it b/c he is truly worthy, or is it b/c when Thor put the lightning to him to finish the process, he was created in some sort of way by Thor and has part of Thor in him?
I have a hard time thinking only truly worthy people pick it up. Why would Cap move it a little? Is he just a little worthy, not truly worthy? If he was a little more worthy, would it have moved a little more? Regardless, that was a cool scene seeing Thor's face.
I think it's obvious that the scepter is a device capable of messing with the mind of whoever touches it, all done by Thanos.
I do not think it has affected Iron Man or Hulk though, as previously stated. I think those two are so tired of the burden of being a superhero and being scared of being responsible for innocent peoples deaths, that they would do something desperate like create Ultron so they don't have to do it anymore. I think they are both maxed out emotionally and stress wise that it caused them to make bad judgements.
And Iron Man is a terd head, always has been, always will. I don't know why some of you are so butt hurt about him being an arse. That's who he is.
Just got back from DisneyWorld last week. Probably saw a couple hundred Captain America shirts. Boys, girls, adults, everyone had them. Didn't' see one Iron Man shirt, and saw 2 kids with Hulk shirts.
The world loves Cap, and there are going to be a lot of angry people when he dies that don't know it's coming. There will be much more hate for Iron Man to come.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:22 pm to VaBamaMan
I agree with pretty much everything except that I think SW knew the dream that she induced would control Stark's actions, not that he was under the influence of the stone or AI.
It also seemed like she was surprised that he broke free from her dream so quickly. Almost as if she saw that the dream made his resolve to protect everyone stronger.
The dream strengthened his resolve which broke him free from the illusion, and led him to considering the idea of Ultron again.
But you also have the scene where the avengers were arguing in the first movie and Whedon made it seem like the sceptor amplified the arguement. Tying into to that theory.
It also seemed like she was surprised that he broke free from her dream so quickly. Almost as if she saw that the dream made his resolve to protect everyone stronger.
The dream strengthened his resolve which broke him free from the illusion, and led him to considering the idea of Ultron again.
But you also have the scene where the avengers were arguing in the first movie and Whedon made it seem like the sceptor amplified the arguement. Tying into to that theory.
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 12:25 pm
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:22 pm to VaBamaMan
quote:
The Scepter was influencing Loki the entire time
I think the influence of the sceptor is kind of like the influence of alcohol on people. It just makes people more of what they are.
For Loki, it was power hungry and insecure towards his adopted family.
For Tony, it was ignorant to his actual failings and completely frightened of his potential failings.
The staff just magnified those things. Stark is an a-hole without the staff, so he's just an even bigger a-hole with it.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:27 pm to jackwoods4
Yeah, it's definitely more enjoyable than the first one
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:27 pm to jeff5891
quote:Great point.
But you also have the scene where the avengers were arguing in the first movie and Whedon made it seem like the sceptor amplified the arguement. Tying into to that theory.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:29 pm to abellsujr
If I were Robert Downey I'd make sure my agent talked to the producers so I wouldnt have to stand next to Chris Evans in a muscle shirt
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:32 pm to DelU249
quote:standing next to him on the farm chopping wood while wearing the shirt tied around his waist was hilarious
If I were Robert Downey I'd make sure my agent talked to the producers so I wouldnt have to stand next to Chris Evans in a muscle shirt
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 12:32 pm
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:40 pm to abellsujr
quote:
Being an a-hole and causing the apocalypse because of careless decisions are two different things. There is more to it than "Stark is an a-hole".
Well being an a-hole is short hand for saying that Stark is a narcissist who often believes that no matter what he's the smartest guy in the room (in most cases he's right, technically). He also often believes that his idea is the best and only idea that will work. On this, he is usually wrong. But because he's arrogant, he's probably going to try and do it. And because of all of these things, he was easily manipulated to take actions that caused lots and lots of problems,
But in the end, he's also the guy that fixes them, so there's that too.
Of course, there's more too it, and we've discussed this already.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:40 pm to abellsujr
quote:
Great point.
That was also why I think it uses certain emotions against you. Then influences you to do its will. Why else would banner have picked it up? He has never used a weapon in his life.
Tony and Banner were pawns. Lol
Thanos now has to do it himself because the AI was destroyed. So it can't influence the earth to destroy itself.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:43 pm to DelU249
quote:
jeez, you're like a big fan of these movies and you're getting it in this one.
it's not enough to like it but say these things weren't good.
it's the greatest movie ever god dammit!
No one is arguing quality though. We all need to stop and think before we call any criticism of a criticism being a fanboy. People just don't agree with his assessment of Stark. He's wrong on that one.
quote:
I was kind of being nice by leaving out the hackneyed plot device: robot built to protect humanity does so by eradicating/enslaving/oppressing them
He explained this in the film. Initially he wanted to protect humanity by destroying the Avengers who he saw as agents of chaos (and he's partially right), but then he wanted to "Evolve" past humanity and build a new world of "evolved" androids that would be more peaceful. He literally tells the audience.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:44 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
He explained this in the film. Initially he wanted to protect humanity by destroying the Avengers who he saw as agents of chaos (and he's partially right), but then he wanted to "Evolve" past humanity and build a new world of "evolved" androids that would be more peaceful. He literally tells the audience.
its still a shitty and overdone plot.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:45 pm to Baloo
quote:
Yes.
Iron Man has been an a-hole from Scene One of Movie One. He's based on a character who is an a-hole in the comics. He has been reliably portrayed as an a-hole in every film. And now its some sort of criticism that he's an a-hole in this movie as well? That makes no sense. That's the character.
That's like complaining that the hero of James Bond movies is a womanizer. I mean, that's the damn character.
I do like how hard DC partisans, particularly Mulder, are trying to push the city destruction angle, as that was a charhe lobbed at MOS. It doesn't fit at all, but damn it, they will make it work because that's how my beloved property was criticized so I will get Marvel back! I'm an enraged fanboy who will now try and deflect criticism by complaining about fanboys rooting for the other team!
Not that one can't enjoy both a DC and a Marvel property.
However, the "innocent civilians" complaint makes no sense regarding Ultron considering this move bent over backwards, to an almost comical degree, to demonstrate how our heroes were minimizing or outright preventing civilian casualties. In fact, it was to the point where it was legitimately distracting. And, it took away from the Hulk's narrative arc, as he refused to go green again due to his culpability in civilian deaths as the Hulk, Yet since the movie went into contortions to show that there were NO civilian casualties and all the buildings destroyed were empty and going to be purchased by Stark, then that arc makes less sense and loses its power.
It's like people had a talking point before the movie ever came out they were going to lob as a criticism, still smarting over the Superman criticism, and they are going to use that talking point even though the film's problem is the exact tonal opposite.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:46 pm to Freauxzen
quote:And maybe a better way to phrase my views on Stark was to say his character took his arrogance to a whole new level. I do agree that Stark is all of the things you're describing, but I think he went further than I would have liked or expected. Of course this is before I thought about the One Ring factor.
Well being an a-hole is short hand for saying that Stark is a narcissist who often believes that no matter what he's the smartest guy in the room (in most cases he's right, technically). He also often believes that his idea is the best and only idea that will work. On this, he is usually wrong. But because he's arrogant, he's probably going to try and do it. And because of all of these things, he was easily manipulated to take actions that caused lots and lots of problems,
But in the end, he's also the guy that fixes them, so there's that too.
Of course, there's more too it, and we've discussed this already.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:48 pm to abellsujr
quote:
I don't understand why people are so insulted by this.
No one is insulted, painting people like that does you no good. People disagree, and for good reason.
If you frame the argument like that, you immediately shift it to this two sided war, rather than a debate about the film. No one is insulted. No one is trying to argue that the film is better than it is. People just disagree.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:49 pm to DelU249
quote:
I know what they were shooting for, but when it is flat out stated in the dialogue, it's not really subtext.
What were they shooting for IYO?
I saw all of the parenthood/duality/evolution stuff. That was all there, very lightly, and pretty effective.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:52 pm to DelU249
quote:
I was kind of being nice by leaving out the hackneyed plot device: robot built to protect humanity does so by eradicating/enslaving/oppressing them
So you think the plots to books, tv shows and movies like Terminator, Battlestar Galactica, 2001: Space Odyssey, I Robot are all hackneyed too?
AI turning against it's creator and the people it's supposed to protect is a pretty common trope in fiction.
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 12:58 pm
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