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Message
re: Is Carlos Beltran a Hall of Famer?
Posted on 8/31/15 at 2:13 pm to shel311
Posted on 8/31/15 at 2:13 pm to shel311
quote:To add to this point, why not group players who were similarly good against righties and lefties, as opposed to grouping switch hitters? seems more consistent and fair.
If this is actually so, there would be no need to bundle switch hitters to see who is HOF worthy. Since you do group them, that insinuates that it does not at all go hand in hand.
0
Posted on 8/31/15 at 2:38 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
once the starting pitcher is removed, they usually do not have the advantage especially left handed hitters. Righties are a little more neutral but still, relievers are brought in based their weaknesses
Lance Berkman, a switch hitter, has a .293 career average. He hit .304 against RHP and .260 against LHP.
Buster Posey is a right handed hitter with a .310 career average. He hits .303 vs RHP and .328 against LHP.
Berkman was a liability against LHP even though he was a switch hitter. Just think how poorly he would have hit had he stayed from the left side regardless of the pitcher. Posey stays from the right side, but his splits are great regardless.
Adrian Beltre is a right handed hitter with a .284 career average. He hits .282 vs RHP and .289 vs LHP.
Carlos Beltran is a .281 career hitter, hitting .280 vs RHP and .282 vs LHP.
Is Beltran a better hitter than Beltre just because he is a switch hitter?
The point is that when it comes to great hitters, being a switch hitter should not be worth any more than your splits say it is. When it comes to HOF candidates, you're not usually going to find guys who are a major liability against LHP or RHP in the first place, regardless of whether they batted R, L, or S. Some hitters are great hitters BECAUSE they are switch hitters, and their numbers bear that out, but they shouldn't get any more credit than their numbers.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 2:40 pm to slackster
quote:This is my main point of this entire thread, not sure why it's getting lost.
The point is that when it comes to great hitters, being a switch hitter should not be worth any more than your splits say it is
quote:All else equal, pretty much this. Why would Beltran only be compared to a much smaller group of switch hitters only to be HOF worthy, while Beltre has to be compared to everyone?
Adrian Beltre is a right handed hitter with a .284 career average. He hits .282 vs RHP and .289 vs LHP.
Carlos Beltran is a .281 career hitter, hitting .280 vs RHP and .282 vs LHP.
Is Beltran a better hitter than Beltre just because he is a switch hitter?
Posted on 8/31/15 at 4:02 pm to shel311
quote:
All else equal, pretty much this. Why would Beltran only be compared to a much smaller group of switch hitters only to be HOF worthy, while Beltre has to be compared to everyone?
He shouldn't. This supposed subcategory for switch hitters is ridiculous.
And to whomever reference Craig Biggio. He was just a good player for a long time-by no means great and certainly not worthy of any meaningful Hall of Fame.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 4:44 pm to LSUtoOmaha
quote:
And to whomever reference Craig Biggio. He was just a good player for a long time-by no means great and certainly not worthy of any meaningful Hall of Fame.
I guess you don't realize that Biggio is in the Hall of Fame do you? When 20 "good" years add up to 3,000 hits, that is certainly HOF worthy.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 6:27 pm to slackster
quote:
Lance Berkman, a switch hitter, has a .293 career average. He hit .304 against RHP and .260 against LHP.
Hey buddy i never said anything about Lance Berkman. Not all switch hitters are equal, and this only proves how consistent Beltran has been.
quote:
Berkman was a liability against LHP even though he was a switch hitter. Just think how poorly he would have hit had he stayed from the left side regardless of the pitcher. Posey stays from the right side, but his splits are great regardless.
well, Berkman was a natural lefty. And there are not splits to show how bad he would have hit lefthanded vs LHP.
as far as being a liability right handed, Im not sure you know what a liability is. He still boasted a .360 OBP, which is way above average. He just wasn't as good as he was hitting left handed.
quote:
Is Beltran a better hitter than Beltre just because he is a switch hitter?
Not just because he was a switch hitter. Beltran was a better hitter for other reasons. Batting average is not very relevant anymore, man.
Every hitter is different. I can cherry pick players all day just like you are. I already conceded that most right hand hitters are neutral. I don't see any lefties on your list though. Hmmm, wonder why.
Again, I'll post this one more time and maybe it will resonate.
Lefthanded hitters vs LHP hit .243/306/359. That's batting average, OBP, and SLG %
Posted on 8/31/15 at 6:30 pm to shel311
quote:
s. Why would Beltran only be compared to a much smaller group of switch hitters only to be HOF worthy, while Beltre has to be compared to everyone?
you're taking what I say way too literal. Beltran is compared to everyone else. When you start checking off notable things regarding his career, you eventually get to him being one of the best switch hitters of all time. It's not the first, second or even third thing that made him great. But it is notable.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 9:38 pm to shel311
quote:
If you have similar splits to a switch hitter, what advantage are you not having?
Similar splits to a switch hitter is rare. It is a rare skill to be able to hit both lefties and righties well.
What do you not understand about always having a platoon advantage? This is critical in the late innings when managers are bringing in LOOGY's and other specialists.
The value of a switch hitter could show up in slightly elevated production of his teammates. It is more than just what appears in the box score. You do realize that there is a shite ton of unknown information out there that advanced metrics have trouble understanding?
This post was edited on 8/31/15 at 9:40 pm
Posted on 8/31/15 at 9:46 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:it's not THAT rare, and my point was, for the guys who can put up consistent splits like a switch hitter, the difference is negligible,especially if you're analyzing them by HOF standards.
Similar splits to a switch hitter is rare. It is a rare skill to be able to hit both lefties and righties well.
quote:If, say, a righty can put up the same splits, what's the major advantage?
What do you not understand about always having a platoon advantage?
quote:Fwiw, I can make up some completely random comment based on nothing to discount switch hitters, but that would be silly of me to do. You'll probably take offense to that comment, but I don't think you can deny the truth in it.
The value of a switch hitter could show up in slightly elevated production of his teammates. It is more than just what appears in the box score. You do realize that there is a shite ton of unknown information out there that advanced metrics have trouble understanding?
Posted on 8/31/15 at 10:01 pm to shel311
quote:
it's not THAT rare,
It is not very common either. The guys who can often mash both lefties and righties are among the best in the game.
quote:
for the guys who can put up consistent splits like a switch hitter,
Even great hitters do not have consistent splits throughout their career.
quote:
If, say, a righty can put up the same splits, what's the major advantage?
How many fricking times do we have spell out advantages in late-inning situations? You can build lineups easy to avoid stacking righties (or lefties).
quote:
Fwiw, I can make up some completely random comment based on nothing to discount switch hitters, but that would be silly of me to do. You'll probably take offense to that comment, but I don't think you can deny the truth in it.
And you continue to act like no one can answer your vague questions even though you only have a cursory knowledge of the subject.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 10:14 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:This guy, the new MSB badass.
And you continue to act like no one can answer your vague questions even though you only have a cursory knowledge of the subject.
You're so edgy and cool!!!
I'm not sure when you transitioned from just a dude talking sports to the know it all wannabe type that usually gets mocked on the MSB, I missed that transformation stage.
This post was edited on 8/31/15 at 10:16 pm
Posted on 8/31/15 at 10:19 pm to shel311
quote:
I'm not sure when you transitioned from just a dude talking sports to the know it all wannabe type that usually gets mocked on the MSB
I would never say that if we were talking basketball. I just think you are missing the mark in this one.
Should being a switch hitter affect an HOF candidacy? Maybe a little. It is a feather in the cap.
You are continuing to ignore that a switch hitter who can hit both lefties and righties is not the same as a switch hitter who can hit everyone.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 10:24 pm to shel311
quote:
shel311
quote:
know it all wannabe type
Posted on 8/31/15 at 10:32 pm to BayouBengals03
Good work on the up and down votes on the last few posts. 
I'd never tell a poster basically that I know more than him or that just isn't very knowledgeable in what is pretty obviously a way to cut him down, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about.
I'd never tell a poster basically that I know more than him or that just isn't very knowledgeable in what is pretty obviously a way to cut him down, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 10:35 pm to shel311
Dude, you're one of the smartest people on this board.
But for you to call someone else a know-it-all is pretty hilarious, considering I don't think you think you've ever been wrong once on this site.
Just the pot calling the kettle black.
But for you to call someone else a know-it-all is pretty hilarious, considering I don't think you think you've ever been wrong once on this site.
Just the pot calling the kettle black.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 10:40 pm to BayouBengals03
I debate stuff, I never belittle anyone or randomly tell them they don't know as much as me on a subject, get outta here with that. Sorry if you can't see a clear difference there.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 11:01 pm to shel311
You should not get upset over an anonymous person posting on a message board. I think you are a very good poster. Over the past few years, I have rarely seen you participate in baseball. Unless you are unusually quiet about baseball, it would lead to me think you do not follow it like you follow the NBA.
Baseball is such a match-up dependent game. BVP splits can be very important. Very good hitters like Corey Dickerson could fall into a platoon. I love sabermetrics and listen to FanGraphs audio all the time, but there is so much out there that we still have trouble properly evaluating. Dave Cameron mentions that all the time.
Everyone has been wrong on this site.
Baseball is such a match-up dependent game. BVP splits can be very important. Very good hitters like Corey Dickerson could fall into a platoon. I love sabermetrics and listen to FanGraphs audio all the time, but there is so much out there that we still have trouble properly evaluating. Dave Cameron mentions that all the time.
quote:
I don't think you think you've ever been wrong once on this site.
Everyone has been wrong on this site.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 11:14 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Again, I'll post this one more time and maybe it will resonate.
Lefthanded hitters vs LHP hit .243/306/359. That's batting average, OBP, and SLG %
I'm aware of the struggles for left handed hitters vs LHP. I'm also aware of the advantage of being a competent switch hitter. My concern is related to the discussion at hand, and that discussion is whether Beltran is a Hall of Famer.
When you start comparing Beltran's splits against Hall of Fame caliber players, his switch hitting is negligible at best. When you're talking about guys with career OPS of .850ish or more, you're not going to find someone who is a liability against LHP.
My point is pretty simple, but it seems to be lost on some in this thread. The fact that Beltran is in this conversation is because his numbers are great. The reason his numbers are great is because he is a switch hitter. That is where the switch hitting benefit should stop IMO.
I understand all the hoopla about lineup strategies and such, but again, when discussing HOF caliber players, you're not going to find someone who is a liability from the plate in the first place.
Posted on 8/31/15 at 11:17 pm to slackster
quote:
The reason his numbers are great is because he is a switch hitter.
hey, you said it
Posted on 8/31/15 at 11:28 pm to shel311
quote:
get outta here with that. Sorry if you can't see a clear difference there.
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