- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Coaching Changes
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Captain Jaye
| Favorite team: | |
| Location: | |
| Biography: | |
| Interests: | |
| Occupation: | |
| Number of Posts: | 14 |
| Registered on: | 12/11/2013 |
| Online Status: | Not Online |
Recent Posts
Message
re: AZ Senate Passes 'Right to Discriminate' Bill
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/26/14 at 5:26 pm to asurob1
I must give you credit. You troll exceedingly well. Seriously, it takes some finesse to keep up a completely illogical position backed by nothing for - my word - 33 pages. The last several pages are mainly just people asking you for the simplest thing in the world: A reference to piece of the bill you don't agree with. A piece of the bill that is fundamental to anything you saying actually having, you know, merit...And somehow.
Somehow...
You avoid giving them that and keep the thread alive at the same time. :rotflmao:
Somehow...
You avoid giving them that and keep the thread alive at the same time. :rotflmao:
re: AZ Senate Passes 'Right to Discriminate' Bill
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/26/14 at 10:21 am to NC_Tigah
Completely agree, I'm just trying to get a fix for my curiosity in the bigger picture. It seems so utterly fruitless to pursue a discussion on policy if you adopt asurob's fundamental reasoning. If I try to accept it, I feel so apathetic, worthless, and hopeless. xD
re: AZ Senate Passes 'Right to Discriminate' Bill
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/26/14 at 9:45 am to asurob1
*wanders in*
If the crux of argumentation is hinged on the idea that humanity is capable of terrible things and we are opening doors, the very least the detractors of the bill can agree upon is that humanity has a sick and twisted inclination, no?
That being the case, I fail to see how a system with or without the bill is any better. If the assumption is true then any policy - whether it 'protect' rights or not - is going to be subject to abuse through misinterpretation and twisting... Surely you cannot seriously say that the system before this bill was implemented is the cure all for the supposed issues? Surely it is just as subject to twisting, right?
Upon realizing that, I think I have just proven that discussion over the issue is fruitless and full of insignificant hot air. In fact, policy implementation in general in useless seeing as it's people crafting and implementing the policies. At this point I'm left to wonder... If your view of humanity is true...
Y u try so hard man? U get nowhere
If the crux of argumentation is hinged on the idea that humanity is capable of terrible things and we are opening doors, the very least the detractors of the bill can agree upon is that humanity has a sick and twisted inclination, no?
That being the case, I fail to see how a system with or without the bill is any better. If the assumption is true then any policy - whether it 'protect' rights or not - is going to be subject to abuse through misinterpretation and twisting... Surely you cannot seriously say that the system before this bill was implemented is the cure all for the supposed issues? Surely it is just as subject to twisting, right?
Upon realizing that, I think I have just proven that discussion over the issue is fruitless and full of insignificant hot air. In fact, policy implementation in general in useless seeing as it's people crafting and implementing the policies. At this point I'm left to wonder... If your view of humanity is true...
Y u try so hard man? U get nowhere
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 12:08 pm to dante
quote:
If you want to argue that non-violent possessors of marijuana are punished to harshly that is another subject.
I think in general disenfranchisement is simply counterproductive, not just non-violent criminals. The thread spun off a bit into why it would or would not be justified as an idea, which is why my observations are detached from Holder. I think Holder is a moron. :lol:
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 11:46 am to dante
Oh, Holder is totally being partisan. His motivations here are super clear. From a non-partisan standpoint though, re-enfranchisement has some policy merit.
Speaking of getting the right to vote back, there are some states who enfranchise post release, but that's only part of the story. All those numbers on how many people are disenfranchised are those who are barred by law. There is an even greater of number of people who are de-facto disenfranchised because of the way the system works. Namely the lack of uniformity. States are so different that there is a lot of misinformation about who is allowed to apply for re-enfranchisement and who is not. The process is also rather difficult for people with limited resources or who have a limited understanding of their legal options.
LINK
(There are I believe three states who permanently remove the franchise without any hope of appeal, contrary to the insinuation of the quote. Which doesn't reflect well on these two educated sirs. But we can overlook that. :lol:)
Speaking of getting the right to vote back, there are some states who enfranchise post release, but that's only part of the story. All those numbers on how many people are disenfranchised are those who are barred by law. There is an even greater of number of people who are de-facto disenfranchised because of the way the system works. Namely the lack of uniformity. States are so different that there is a lot of misinformation about who is allowed to apply for re-enfranchisement and who is not. The process is also rather difficult for people with limited resources or who have a limited understanding of their legal options.
quote:
"Nearly three-fourths of individuals who are prevented from voting are not incarcerated. Although every state has procedures in place for obtaining a restoration of voting rights, many of these procedures are so involved and technical as to operate as de facto bars to restoration for those ex-offenders with limited resources and education. Indeed, the characterization of restoration as a hollow remedy is further supported by the fact that very few individuals subject to disenfranchisement ever successfully get the right to vote back – in 11 different states that practice disenfranchisement, fewer than 3% of ex-felons who were disenfranchised have successfully gotten their voting rights restored."
LINK
(There are I believe three states who permanently remove the franchise without any hope of appeal, contrary to the insinuation of the quote. Which doesn't reflect well on these two educated sirs. But we can overlook that. :lol:)
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 11:30 am to PanhandleTigah
I will definitely agree with the lower information category part. The idealistic part of me really wants to say that everyone should vote regardless of how much information they have, since voting is a vital tool for the health and accountability of a representative government.
But then I watch who they elect and I have a lot of trouble being okay with it. :lol:
Incidentally, check THIS out:
The voting power of felons would definitely be enough to sway elections and create tangible policy differences with a partial felon voting base. I'm still not convinced that's worth more than the potential public safety benefit, but it's definitely worthy food for though.
But then I watch who they elect and I have a lot of trouble being okay with it. :lol:
Incidentally, check THIS out:
quote:
“Would changes to a handful of elections have had any real impact? Since 1978, there have been over 400 Senate elections, and we find 7 outcomes that may have been reversed if not for the disenfranchisement of felons and ex-felons. Yet even this small number might have shifted the balance of power in the Senate, which has been fairly evenly divided between the two major parties over this period. To assess this possibility, we recomputed the U.S. Senate composition after each election.”
quote:
“Although the outcome of the extraordinarily close 2000 presidential election could have been altered by a large number of factors, [The 2000 presidential election] would almost certainly have been reversed had voting rights been extended to any category of disenfranchised felons. Even though Al Gore won a plurality of the popular vote, defeating the Republican George W. Bush by over 500,000 votes, he lost narrowly in the Electoral College. Had disenfranchised fel- ons been permitted to vote, we estimate that Gore's margin of victory in the popular vote would have surpassed 1 million votes, as shown in Table 4a. Regardless of the popular vote, however, one state – Florida - held the balance of power. If disenfranchised felons in Florida had been permitted to vote, Democrat Gore would certainly have carried the state, and the election.”
The voting power of felons would definitely be enough to sway elections and create tangible policy differences with a partial felon voting base. I'm still not convinced that's worth more than the potential public safety benefit, but it's definitely worthy food for though.
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 11:18 am to PanhandleTigah
Let's say I can prove a link between public safety increasing and giving them their right to vote back. (I posted about that a page back.) That's the positive policy benefit if there is one, the claims of racism are just ridiculous. What can you give me to convince me that enfranchising them isn't the pragmatic policy choice to make?
I'm a hardline conservative who believe accountability is something this country sorely needs. But sentencing laws are based not just on retribution but also on rehabilitation. The criminal justice system is not meant to simply punish but also to rehabilitate to increase public safety. There is a very strong link between enfranchisement and lowered crime. If you want, I can provide backing for this with minimum hassle.
Basically, can you give me something tangible that would happen that is bad if we enfranchise felons?
I'm a hardline conservative who believe accountability is something this country sorely needs. But sentencing laws are based not just on retribution but also on rehabilitation. The criminal justice system is not meant to simply punish but also to rehabilitate to increase public safety. There is a very strong link between enfranchisement and lowered crime. If you want, I can provide backing for this with minimum hassle.
Basically, can you give me something tangible that would happen that is bad if we enfranchise felons?
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 10:47 am to PanhandleTigah
I'm curious - I completely agree with you that actions have consequences - but why do you think that disenfranchisement is a proper punishment for felonies?
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 10:00 am to dante
Holder *did* mention it reducing crime as well, but yes, that was absolutely peripheral in his stance. And honestly, Holder is full of it. I guess he's trying to in a very circumscribed manner draw a link between racism in sentencing and therefore a racist effect by disenfranchisement laws. There simply isn't another plausible way to link disenfranchisement, which equally affects all races when applied, to racism. But that's an incredibly stupid way of dealing with the issue. (Incidentally, there's a lot of academia who agree with the logic used by Holder, which is just sad.)
If the sentencing is flawed. (A big if.) You fix the sentencing. :lol: Somehow, Holder is trying to argue that because sentencing is flawed, we need to abolish an completely separate part of criminal law to try and somehow compensate.
I'm sorry Holder. But... No.
If the sentencing is flawed. (A big if.) You fix the sentencing. :lol: Somehow, Holder is trying to argue that because sentencing is flawed, we need to abolish an completely separate part of criminal law to try and somehow compensate.
I'm sorry Holder. But... No.
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 9:31 am to dante
I'm unfortunately unsure of the details, but considering the uniqueness of states' approaches to sentencing policy I'm willing to be there are. Still, the variance in the nature of the states that chose to enfranchise post-release seems to indicate to me that it's the policy and not environment the policy is implemented in.
What you're saying is plausible, but I don't know if it stands up to scrutiny for a couple of reasons. There is a lot of misinformation about sentencing laws. Some states allow for reenfranchisement and some don't. So that's the first assumption. The second assumption is that criminals act with consequences in mind. While they certainly will have an ambiguous idea of jail in their consciousness, losing the right to vote is peripheral if you're committing a felony. Thirdly, it assumes rational thought on the part of the actor. All premeditated felonies have some degree of rational thought, but crimes of passion don't. Fourthly, it assumes there is no change in values after sentencing. The purpose of the system is supposed to be punishment with rehabilitation. Successful rehabilitation would give much greater weight to a fundamental right in a law abiding society than the felon probably had prior to his crime.
Common sense says you're right, but those numbers and continued logical analysis for some reason lead me away from that conclusion. Which is disconcerting, usually they go hand in hand. :lol:
What you're saying is plausible, but I don't know if it stands up to scrutiny for a couple of reasons. There is a lot of misinformation about sentencing laws. Some states allow for reenfranchisement and some don't. So that's the first assumption. The second assumption is that criminals act with consequences in mind. While they certainly will have an ambiguous idea of jail in their consciousness, losing the right to vote is peripheral if you're committing a felony. Thirdly, it assumes rational thought on the part of the actor. All premeditated felonies have some degree of rational thought, but crimes of passion don't. Fourthly, it assumes there is no change in values after sentencing. The purpose of the system is supposed to be punishment with rehabilitation. Successful rehabilitation would give much greater weight to a fundamental right in a law abiding society than the felon probably had prior to his crime.
Common sense says you're right, but those numbers and continued logical analysis for some reason lead me away from that conclusion. Which is disconcerting, usually they go hand in hand. :lol:
re: AG Holder wants felons to vote primarily because of race
Posted by Captain Jaye on 2/12/14 at 8:34 am to dante
While causality is obviously hard to prove, there is actually a lot more of a link here than you might think.
Here's a study, if you're into empirical data
Here's the part of interest:
And as it turns out, a lot of those felons would have probably voted.
The basic idea is that disenfranchisement ostracizes felons from society and drives them back to crime as a result.
Now, whether or not you buy that enfranchising them will magically drop recidivism is another matter. Still, there's some food for thought up above. A 19% difference in recidivism is kinda hard to chalk up to chance.
Here's a study, if you're into empirical data
Here's the part of interest:
quote:
“We next considered whether variation in state disenfranchisement policies accounted for this observed variation in recidivism across states. A transformation of the coefficient for a state‘s disenfranchisement law reveals that individuals who are released in states that permanently disenfranchise are roughly 19% more likely to be rearrested than those released in states that restore the franchise post-release. This finding provides initial evidence consistent with the thesis that disenfranchisement is directly related to recidivism" [later, in the same context] “Taken as a whole, our findings indicate that states which permanently disenfranchise ex-felons experience significantly higher rates of repeat offenses than states that do not.”
And as it turns out, a lot of those felons would have probably voted.
quote:
"Our estimates of felon turnout range from a low of 20.5 percent (for the 1974 Congressional elections) to a high of 39 percent (for the 1992 presidential election). On average, we predict that about 35 percent of disenfranchised felons would have turned out to vote in presidential elections, and that about 24 percent would have participated in Senate elections during nonpresidential election years. Although these numbers are well below the corresponding rates among non-felons, they suggest that a non-trivial proportion of disenfranchised felons were likely to have voted if permitted to do so."
The basic idea is that disenfranchisement ostracizes felons from society and drives them back to crime as a result.
quote:
"For the individual ex-felon, felon disenfranchisement laws deny them the opportunity to exercise the quintessential rights of citizenship, most notably the right to vote. As a result, ex-felons tend to be alienated ex-felons from mainstream society. For many ex-felons, this legalized exclusion is more often than not an extension of that which they may have experienced either because of poverty or because of race discrimination prior to becoming convicted felons, and leads them to commit such crimes again. In an article in the February 3, 2000 edition of USA Today David Cole writes that "we stamp [ex-felons] as outsiders and bar them from the quintessential act of citizenship, only increasing the likelihood that they will return to a life of crime." The refusal to restore the right to vote, as well as the host of other rights prohibited to ex-felons, denies them the opportunity to begin life anew as fully incorporated citizens. While felon disenfranchisement laws bar the exercise of some rights, the laws do not invalidate other profitable obligations associated with citizenship. Ex-felons who manage to become gainfully employed are still required to pay taxes even though they are denied the benefits associated with those duties such as the ability to elect their representatives or to decide on policies that will govern their lives, and lives of their families. Centuries ago this prospect of taxation without representation was untenable to some Americans. Today, however, such a policy is acceptable, as long as the voice that is denied is that of the ex-felons. Consequently, by alienating ex-felons and treating them as non-citizens, felon disenfranchisement laws merely contribute to the difficult process of reintegration for the ex-felon."
Now, whether or not you buy that enfranchising them will magically drop recidivism is another matter. Still, there's some food for thought up above. A 19% difference in recidivism is kinda hard to chalk up to chance.
re: Predict Richard Sherman's Fine....
Posted by Captain Jaye on 1/19/14 at 9:17 pm to jnugz187
I admit. I was really tempted to spam the OT before posting here, just to get some posts to my name.
But I realized nothing would ever remove the obvious noobdome.
But I realized nothing would ever remove the obvious noobdome.
re: Predict Richard Sherman's Fine....
Posted by Captain Jaye on 1/19/14 at 9:12 pm to TutHillTiger
That was a slightly overreactive analogy don't you think?
Dude is a beast. Playing in the Superbowl.
Dude is a beast. Playing in the Superbowl.
Popular
1











