- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Direct, irreconcilable contradictions in Star Trek
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:15 pm
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:15 pm
Do any of you know of any? I'm not talking about mere logical inconsistencies that can be plausibly (or semi-plausibly) explained, but direct and irreconcilable inconsistencies.
To illustrate:
In Wrath of Khan, Checkov gets a horrified look on his face as soon as he sees the name "Botany Bay" in the shelter on Ceti Alpha 4. But Checkov was not even a member of the Enterprise crew when they encountered the Botany Bay in "Space Seed" in the original series. This is only a logical inconsistency, but not a direct and irreconcilable contradiction because it's plausible that Checkov could have read or heard about the Enterprise's encounter with Botany Bay at any time after it happened regardless of whether he was there to witness it himself.
By contrast, in TNG's "The Price", a significant plot point turns on Troi's ability to sense the emotions of a Ferengi Damon during a standoff between the Enterprise and a Ferengi vessel. By sensing that the Ferengi was not feeling any tension or stress during the encounter, Troi is able to expose that the supposedly dangerous standoff was staged by the Ferengi as part of a conspiracy with the representative of the Chrysalians to sabotage the Federation's chances in negotiations with the Barzan for rights to access a rare stable wormhole in Barzan space.
Just one year later, in "Menage a Trois", both Troi and Lwaxana are kidnapped (along with Riker) by a Ferengi and it is explicitly stated that Betazoids cannot sense the emotions of Ferengi because of some unusual configuration of the Ferengi brain. This is a crucial point for the plot because the Ferengi was able to deceive Troi and Lwaxana in order to accomplish the kidnapping.
This is the kind of direct, irreconcilable contradiction I am talking about.
Does anyone know of any others?
To illustrate:
In Wrath of Khan, Checkov gets a horrified look on his face as soon as he sees the name "Botany Bay" in the shelter on Ceti Alpha 4. But Checkov was not even a member of the Enterprise crew when they encountered the Botany Bay in "Space Seed" in the original series. This is only a logical inconsistency, but not a direct and irreconcilable contradiction because it's plausible that Checkov could have read or heard about the Enterprise's encounter with Botany Bay at any time after it happened regardless of whether he was there to witness it himself.
By contrast, in TNG's "The Price", a significant plot point turns on Troi's ability to sense the emotions of a Ferengi Damon during a standoff between the Enterprise and a Ferengi vessel. By sensing that the Ferengi was not feeling any tension or stress during the encounter, Troi is able to expose that the supposedly dangerous standoff was staged by the Ferengi as part of a conspiracy with the representative of the Chrysalians to sabotage the Federation's chances in negotiations with the Barzan for rights to access a rare stable wormhole in Barzan space.
Just one year later, in "Menage a Trois", both Troi and Lwaxana are kidnapped (along with Riker) by a Ferengi and it is explicitly stated that Betazoids cannot sense the emotions of Ferengi because of some unusual configuration of the Ferengi brain. This is a crucial point for the plot because the Ferengi was able to deceive Troi and Lwaxana in order to accomplish the kidnapping.
This is the kind of direct, irreconcilable contradiction I am talking about.
Does anyone know of any others?
This post was edited on 7/11/16 at 1:16 pm
4
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:19 pm to Nuts4LSU
Khan said in Star Trek TWOK that he recognized Chekov because he never forgets a face so he's clearly stating they had met before.
This post was edited on 7/11/16 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:19 pm to LSUDVM1999
quote:
Khan said in Star Trek TWOK that he recognized Chekov because he never forgets a face.
Oh yes, that's right. I had forgotten about that.
ETA: Agree that this counts as a direct contradiction, but if you wanted to really go to the extreme, it is conceivable, though not very plausible, that when Khan first encountered the Enterprise and was given access to library and data banks, he could theoretically have seen Checkov's personnel file or some other reference to him in those records.
This post was edited on 7/11/16 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:22 pm to Nuts4LSU
quote:
Does anyone know of any others?
You talking to me?
We're watching Enterprise right now. T'Pol gets a crazy disease from being "rape" mind melded. It was a terrible attempt by Braga to do an AIDS allegory - anyway, they act like mind melding is a rare practice, essentially homosexuals and the prudish powers that be pretend like it's a horrifying fringe behavior. Those who do so are societal outcasts.
Spock mind melds all the time - in the timeline just a few decades into the future - maybe 100 years. And his is one of the most important families on Vulcan.
Another one - Kirk and crew go back in time (or the equivalent) a bunch of times. And, an "equivalent" was during "A Piece of the Action" - where a planet took some contamination from an Earth ship (pre-Prime Directive) and reformed their society into 1930s gangster organizations. Kirk actually drove an automobile, albeit badly.
20 years later, they seem horrified and baffled by traffic in 20th Century San Francisco in Star Trek IV: TVH?
Klingons are wildly different (not just physically, but culturally, sociologically, the whole smash) from TOS to TNG, and, in fact, differ significantly from TNG to DS9, although not as starkly. Ditto for Ferengi from TNG to DS9.
This post was edited on 7/11/16 at 1:30 pm
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:28 pm to Nuts4LSU
quote:
By contrast, in TNG's "The Price", a significant plot point turns on Troi's ability to sense the emotions of a Ferengi Damon during a standoff between the Enterprise and a Ferengi vessel.
Let's talk about another "hybrid" and telepathy, while we're on the subject:
Spock is half human/half Vulcan. No other Vulcan ever appears to be able to communicate telepathically - certainly without touch in the traditional mind meld fashion - but Spock was able to control that Yang gal in Omega Glory with his thoughts? He is also able to influence the thoughts and actions of 2 different alien species (1 from another galaxy), through a wall or solid rock (A Taste of Armageddon and By Any Other Name).
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:29 pm to Ace Midnight
I was waiting on youPosted on 7/11/16 at 1:39 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
they act like mind melding is a rare practice, essentially homosexuals and the prudish powers that be pretend like it's a horrifying fringe behavior. Those who do so are societal outcasts.
Spock mind melds all the time - in the timeline just a few decades into the future - maybe 100 years. And his is one of the most important families on Vulcan.
A lot can change in 100 years. Think about all the things that we do now that would have seemed like on the fringe or something only social outcasts do in 1916.
But there was some contradiction in the DS9 as well. The first time they went to the alternate universe the Klignon and Cardassian ships uncloaked to capture some of the characters. The next time there is an alternate universe episode it is explicit that they don't have cloaking technology and Quark actually tries to steal one and take it back.
I want to say Star Trek tried to explain it later somehow, but that was an obvious one.
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:40 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
We're watching Enterprise right now. T'Pol gets a crazy disease from being "rape" mind melded. It was a terrible attempt by Braga to do an AIDS allegory - anyway, they act like mind melding is a rare practice, essentially homosexuals and the prudish powers that be pretend like it's a horrifying fringe behavior. Those who do so are societal outcasts.
Spock mind melds all the time - in the timeline just a few decades into the future - maybe 100 years. And his is one of the most important families on Vulcan.
It's plausible that attitudes about mind melding could have changed during that 100 years or so.
quote:
Kirk and crew go back in time (or the equivalent) a bunch of times. And, an "equivalent" was during "A Piece of the Action" - where a planet took some contamination from an Earth ship (pre-Prime Directive) and reformed their society into 1930s gangster organizations. Kirk actually drove an automobile, albeit badly.
20 years later, they seem horrified and baffled by traffic in 20th Century San Francisco.
True, but then a 1930s gangster might also be horrified and baffled by traffic in a major city in the late 20th Century.
quote:
Klingons are wildly different (not just physically, but culturally, sociologically, the whole smash) from TOS to TNG, and, in fact, differ significantly from TNG to DS9, although not as starkly. Ditto for Ferengi from TNG to DS9.
Yes, no doubt the Klingons changed drastically. The social and cultural changes could maybe be explained by their society changing, but the physical appearance changes cannot.
You could also say similar things about the Trill. In TNG's "The Host", when Odan temporarily inhabits Riker after his original host is killed and then later is transferred to a new, but female, host, the very strong impression is given that the host is merely a body for the symbiant and is all but erased as a personality. If I remember correctly, Odan even makes the point to Beverly that he is still the same person. In DS9, they go pretty deep into the Dax character and how each different host the symbiant inhabits changes who the combined person is. Jadzia Dax is not the same as Curzon Dax.
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:45 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Ditto for Ferengi from TNG to DS9.
Not sure where I watched or heard this but if I'm not mistaken the Ferengi were originally designed to be the kind of new, consistent adversaries for the TNG series but just came off as non-threatening and kind of humorous. As you'd expect, they didn't make too many appearances afterwards.
Then DS9 picked up the ball and was the series that really had a chance to develop the Ferengi as a species.
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:46 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
A lot can change in 100 years.
Vulcans live to be 200 in cases. Things move much more slowly there.
quote:
But there was some contradiction in the DS9 as well. The first time they went to the alternate universe the Klignon and Cardassian ships uncloaked to capture some of the characters. The next time there is an alternate universe episode it is explicit that they don't have cloaking technology and Quark actually tries to steal one and take it back.
I think the Mirror universe is very flexible canon, as they go back and forth and alter things. I can live with that and under those circumstances. My concerns are solely with "real" Star Trek canon in the main universe, 1965 to 2008. "Time travel" and "alternate universes" are just something I can accept as storytelling devices that I don't worry about a lot. Which is why I'm free to ignore the fan fiction that pretends to be "Star Trek" fro 2009 to present.
Posted on 7/11/16 at 1:49 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
Not sure where I watched or heard this but if I'm not mistaken the Ferengi were originally designed to be the kind of new, consistent adversaries for the TNG series but just came off as non-threatening and kind of humorous.
This is exactly what happened. They were going to be TNG's "Klingons" since the Klingons and the Federation were becoming more and more friendly. The Borg and even the Romulans were undeveloped during the early TNG seasons.
And, yeah, everyone laughed at the Ferengi.
Speaking of which - how is it that a show like Star Trek can create a fictional humanoid species whose main attribute is unquenchable greed, have exaggerated facial features such as large ears and noses, and cast almost every major character of that species with a Jewish actor? And no one said - anything.
Explain that M/TV board.
Posted on 7/11/16 at 2:07 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Speaking of which - how is it that a show like Star Trek can create a fictional humanoid species whose main attribute is unquenchable greed, have exaggerated facial features such as large ears and noses, and cast almost every major character of that species with a Jewish actor? And no one said - anything.
I didn't know most of the actors playing Ferengi were Jewish. That does seem very strange.
Posted on 7/11/16 at 2:11 pm to Nuts4LSU
quote:
I didn't know most of the actors playing Ferengi were Jewish. That does seem very strange.
Pretty striking. The show's producers have insisted the Ferengi were supposed to "us" 20th Century humans. That was the joke.
This post was edited on 7/11/16 at 2:14 pm
Posted on 7/11/16 at 2:15 pm to Ace Midnight
.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080814004642&path-prefix=en)
This dude was in a SPACE show and did not die in the first 10 minutes.
I mean...COME ON!
Posted on 7/11/16 at 6:03 pm to Nuts4LSU
Chekov is not seen in "Space Seed", but that doesn't mean he wasn't on board the Enterprise.
"Space Seed" occurred on Stardate 3141.9.
"Catspaw", an episode we see Chekov in, occurred before this on 3018.2, so he was definitely a crew member during Kahn's mutiny attempt.
In "The Man Trap", Spock says Vulcan has no moon, although it plainly does in The Motion Picture. That was corrected in a later release of TPM.
"Space Seed" occurred on Stardate 3141.9.
"Catspaw", an episode we see Chekov in, occurred before this on 3018.2, so he was definitely a crew member during Kahn's mutiny attempt.
In "The Man Trap", Spock says Vulcan has no moon, although it plainly does in The Motion Picture. That was corrected in a later release of TPM.
This post was edited on 7/11/16 at 6:39 pm
Posted on 7/11/16 at 6:40 pm to Ace Midnight
Star Trek is an SJW's wet dream. Guaranteed that the new series will have a tranny character. Probably a lesbian black captain. The only white male characters will buffoonish man boys who can't work the replicator without help from a woman or alien that has no gender.
Posted on 7/11/16 at 8:47 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
This dude was in a SPACE show and did not die in the first 10 minutes.
We laugh now, but Star Trek was literally groundbreaking for black folks:
Uhura (Nichelle Nichols) as a regular cast member (communications officer wasn't important to every plot, but she was a bridge officer, which was highly unusual for a black female to have anything other than a role as a domestic servant, prostitute or drug addict - sometimes, all three, during that era) - and obligatory
- : 
And some fantastic guest stars:
Don Marshall as Mr. Boma:
Blueshirt (scientist). Survived the episode, despite a slew of white folks getting killed by space Squatches.
William Marshall as Richard Daystrom:
Madman/genius who invented the computers of the Star Trek universe. Went crazy along with his machine. Kirk talked the machine to death but let the brother live.
Your boy Percy Rodriguez (a Canadian-born, like Shatner, actor of Afro Portuguese descent) who courtmartialed Kirk's white arse.
And, lest we forget:
Maurishka Taliaferro as Yeoman Zhara in Operation Annihilate!:
She didn't do a whole lot on the episode (another redshirt survivor, though), but she looked good doing it.
This post was edited on 7/11/16 at 8:49 pm
Posted on 7/12/16 at 12:23 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:especially after they reach 165
Vulcans live to be 200 in cases. Things move much more slowly there.
Page 1 of 1
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News