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Message
Advice on building a house?
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:31 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:31 pm
So here's the rundown. I have a lot paid off. I want to build a 2000-2300 square foot living house in the Houma/Thibodaux area. I know that how much per square foot questions don't go over well here, but I have a dilemma. I went talk to a couple builders just to get an idea of what I could build on my budget. That way I can have reasonable plans made.
220-260k build budget
4 bedrooms (4th can be smaller since it'll initially be an office)
2-2.5 bath
2 car garage
4-5k of dirtwork (per the builders)
I went to a couple nice builders and they basically told me 300-315k to build a 2300 square foot home. One of them said 250k for 1800sqft (to meet your budget). When I pressed them for what can change the prices they didn't really want to go down that route and tried to downplay how much the cost could change. One of them tried to explain to me that removing a 10x12 room might only save you $2400 in some case. I was like "yeah ok".
I guess these are really upper end builders in the area. I have a couple questions.
1. When most people calculate their price per sqft are they doing living or total? I was under the impression most are talking about living.
2. Are there in between builders or are my only options so extreme. $80 sqft builder grade (someone I know got some brick and granite for that) or $130+ like these 1st two guys? I'm extrapolating the living prices, both builders told me 90-100 times total. I was trying to figure out what 100-110 living would get me.
3. I have no plans yet. Should I just go get preliminary plans drawn and then get bids to get a more accurate price? Then when they bid I assume that it will be detailed enough where I can see if they're overcharging for framing, plumbing, etc...?
4. One guy said he could do cost plus or fixed fee, but both mentioned turn key pricing (they just bid a total price and allowances are the only thing that can fluctuate). How common is that? I know it's prevelant when the builder owns the lot, but I have one already. Seems like a good way to hide some of the pricing. What am I missing?
5. After I get plans, can I get multiple crews to bid individual items like framing and then use that to negotiate what the general contractor wants to charge in his bid?
Any help would be appreciated because this process is stressful.
220-260k build budget
4 bedrooms (4th can be smaller since it'll initially be an office)
2-2.5 bath
2 car garage
4-5k of dirtwork (per the builders)
I went to a couple nice builders and they basically told me 300-315k to build a 2300 square foot home. One of them said 250k for 1800sqft (to meet your budget). When I pressed them for what can change the prices they didn't really want to go down that route and tried to downplay how much the cost could change. One of them tried to explain to me that removing a 10x12 room might only save you $2400 in some case. I was like "yeah ok".
I guess these are really upper end builders in the area. I have a couple questions.
1. When most people calculate their price per sqft are they doing living or total? I was under the impression most are talking about living.
2. Are there in between builders or are my only options so extreme. $80 sqft builder grade (someone I know got some brick and granite for that) or $130+ like these 1st two guys? I'm extrapolating the living prices, both builders told me 90-100 times total. I was trying to figure out what 100-110 living would get me.
3. I have no plans yet. Should I just go get preliminary plans drawn and then get bids to get a more accurate price? Then when they bid I assume that it will be detailed enough where I can see if they're overcharging for framing, plumbing, etc...?
4. One guy said he could do cost plus or fixed fee, but both mentioned turn key pricing (they just bid a total price and allowances are the only thing that can fluctuate). How common is that? I know it's prevelant when the builder owns the lot, but I have one already. Seems like a good way to hide some of the pricing. What am I missing?
5. After I get plans, can I get multiple crews to bid individual items like framing and then use that to negotiate what the general contractor wants to charge in his bid?
Any help would be appreciated because this process is stressful.
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 5:38 pm
5
Posted on 7/30/14 at 7:52 pm to man117
1. Most use living
2. All depends on finishes. Finishes can add up quickly. Unless you plan on letting the builder pick them out, I would try to pick out as many lighting and plumbing fixtures, countertops, and flooring now and get a good idea of the prices.
3. Go ahead and get plans now. I would take your budget and divide by a conservative per square foot price to figure the size house you can afford. It will probably come down to size vs finishes. Your budget should be based off of what you can afford and what the comps are in your area
4. I would do fixed fee if it is a reasonable percentage of your overall cost. Why should a builder get more money just because you got more expensive finishes? They all take the same amount of time and effort to install
5. I would either stick with the builders subs or sub it all out yourself. Now if you want to check his prices and try to talk him down some, it's worth trying. Not all subs are created equal though. You get what you pay for most of the time
2. All depends on finishes. Finishes can add up quickly. Unless you plan on letting the builder pick them out, I would try to pick out as many lighting and plumbing fixtures, countertops, and flooring now and get a good idea of the prices.
3. Go ahead and get plans now. I would take your budget and divide by a conservative per square foot price to figure the size house you can afford. It will probably come down to size vs finishes. Your budget should be based off of what you can afford and what the comps are in your area
4. I would do fixed fee if it is a reasonable percentage of your overall cost. Why should a builder get more money just because you got more expensive finishes? They all take the same amount of time and effort to install
5. I would either stick with the builders subs or sub it all out yourself. Now if you want to check his prices and try to talk him down some, it's worth trying. Not all subs are created equal though. You get what you pay for most of the time
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 7:58 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 8:14 pm to man117
As a tip on the house plans: Make sure you buy plans from someone selling complete plans suited for this region.(like a local design company the builders in your area are familiar with) My wife spent $2000 on plans she found from some architecture firm online and we had to have them completely redrawn to be usable around here. The draftsman who "fixed" them removed all the "over architectural" bullshite like a roof with 15 gables. He also told us he could've come up with the plans based off the online floorplan picture.
You can probably show plans from an online catalog to builders and get some preliminary estimates based on those plans. For example in Louisiana:
LINK /
You can probably show plans from an online catalog to builders and get some preliminary estimates based on those plans. For example in Louisiana:
LINK /
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 8:22 pm to BeerMoney
Oh one other thing about the price per square foot; it can change drastically. With the base plan I brought my builder he bid $142 sq/ft. By the time we redrew it and cleared the air on exactly what we wanted it was $108 sq/ft. This was with the same builder and the same square feet. We've started building and my wife is picking exactly the stuff she wants and coming under the allowances.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 9:53 pm to man117
You got a bad reply on here I can straighten out for you and answer some questions.
1. Most builders go by total sqft on a bid. The sqft price fluctuates based on the living to nonliving ratio. We pay many trades on total sqft, so we price on that. Most are around 70/30. If you build a house with a 95/5 spilt (like a small house with no under beam porches) the sqft price will be higher.
2. You should be able to get a price around $60-$65 sqft with reasonable finishes. If you want more info in that I can give you my email. Things like nice lam wood floors, brushed bronze fixtures, granite tops, double crown in living, single in master and kitchen.
3. Don't have plans drawn until you pick a builder. The plans will have to be stamped by an engineer (who doesn't draw them) and it can get a little dicey. Best to work with someone. My business has a draftsman we use included in our contract. We rough scetch, get a deposit to cover plans, have them drawn/stamped. If you have plans that are not up to engineers par (for example some don't include foundation details), you will essentially have to pay twice.
4. Many contractors do cost plus, personally I would not. It adds another variable and possibility for animosity to the project. If the contractor gets paid a percentage of costs, where is the incentive to be cost effective. I recommend this only for big customs where money is not an issue.
5. Bidding individual thing out will not affect the price. We have a margin like any business. We also do it cheaper than you, so if you bid stuff out it will show you how valuable our service is!
Thanks
1. Most builders go by total sqft on a bid. The sqft price fluctuates based on the living to nonliving ratio. We pay many trades on total sqft, so we price on that. Most are around 70/30. If you build a house with a 95/5 spilt (like a small house with no under beam porches) the sqft price will be higher.
2. You should be able to get a price around $60-$65 sqft with reasonable finishes. If you want more info in that I can give you my email. Things like nice lam wood floors, brushed bronze fixtures, granite tops, double crown in living, single in master and kitchen.
3. Don't have plans drawn until you pick a builder. The plans will have to be stamped by an engineer (who doesn't draw them) and it can get a little dicey. Best to work with someone. My business has a draftsman we use included in our contract. We rough scetch, get a deposit to cover plans, have them drawn/stamped. If you have plans that are not up to engineers par (for example some don't include foundation details), you will essentially have to pay twice.
4. Many contractors do cost plus, personally I would not. It adds another variable and possibility for animosity to the project. If the contractor gets paid a percentage of costs, where is the incentive to be cost effective. I recommend this only for big customs where money is not an issue.
5. Bidding individual thing out will not affect the price. We have a margin like any business. We also do it cheaper than you, so if you bid stuff out it will show you how valuable our service is!
Thanks
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 9:55 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 9:55 pm to BeerMoney
quote:
Oh one other thing about the price per square foot; it can change drastically. With the base plan I brought my builder he bid $142 sq/ft. By the time we redrew it and cleared the air on exactly what we wanted it was $108 sq/ft. This was with the same builder and the same square feet. We've started building and my wife is picking exactly the stuff she wants and coming under the allowances.
I'm going to pick a local draftsman. I got a few references from both guys. You mind telling me what $108 sq/ft is getting you? I am starting to think the same as what you guys are saying. I'm going to have to research and pick all of the small details or else builder are going to go top end on everything and give me these $130 quotes. The area has some homes that are in that range so I think that's why the builders shot that number off. I'm not planning on building a dump but I'm not looking for $130 sq/ft either.
Posted on 7/30/14 at 10:13 pm to Libertariantiger
quote:I think both builders were assuming a 70/30 split, I know the 2nd one was. I specifically asked the 1st one how much cheaper non living tends to be percentage wise. He told me "that's a good question", but didn't really answer
1. Most builders go by total sqft on a bid. The sqft price fluctuates based on the living to nonliving ratio. We pay many trades on total sqft, so we price on that. Most are around 70/30. If you build a house with a 95/5 spilt (like a small house with no under beam porches) the sqft price will be higher.
quote:
2. You should be able to get a price around $60-$65 sqft with reasonable finishes. If you want more info in that I can give you my email. Things like nice lam wood floors, brushed bronze fixtures, granite tops, double crown in living, single in master and kitchen.
I was looking for wood in all bedrooms and probably stained concrete everywhere else. The crown you mentioned is fine. I don't need triple crown everywhere.
quote:I was planning on using someone they were all familiar with so I knew there wouldn't be any problems. One of the draftsmen was actually mentioned by both. I want them to know it's being competitively bidded. They both said he could make a prelim plan that they could bid accurately.
3. Don't have plans drawn until you pick a builder. The plans will have to be stamped by an engineer (who doesn't draw them) and it can get a little dicey. Best to work with someone. My business has a draftsman we use included in our contract. We rough scetch, get a deposit to cover plans, have them drawn/stamped. If you have plans that are not up to engineers par (for example some don't include foundation details), you will essentially have to pay twice.
quote:So you're advocating fixed fee, correct? That's what I'm thinking.
4. Many contractors do cost plus, personally I would not. It adds another variable and possibility for animosity to the project. If the contractor gets paid a percentage of costs, where is the incentive to be cost effective. I recommend this only for big customs where money is not an issue.
quote:No, I'm not trying to pick the subs for the GC. I'm just wondering how much room for negotiating, if any, there is with plumbing labor, framing, etc....How do I know I'm not being gouged on those? I understand you have to pay for quality but at some point you have to make sure costs are competitive.
5. Bidding individual thing out will not affect the price. We have a margin like any business. We also do it cheaper than you, so if you bid stuff out it will show you how valuable our service is!
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 10:15 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 10:23 pm to man117
On number 5, it doesn't matter. I for instance consciously choose to pay more for framers, plumbers, painters and less for brickers, vinyl, and carpet. The price is what it is. Different people put different emphasis. For instance you can find a framer for $1 sqft cheaper on total. Probably save 4k off your price. Doesn't matter, I'm still using my guy and charging the same due to risks involved.
You are asking the right questions though to head down the right path.
Finishes is the biggest determiner of final price. For ex. A normal fiberglass shower 4' cost $300. An awesome custom granite mixed marble is around 3K. An even more awesome inlaid tile custom shower has ran me as much as 7K. Devil is in the details. That is where you need to make sure the money is. Not plumb labor, frame labor etc.
You are asking the right questions though to head down the right path.
Finishes is the biggest determiner of final price. For ex. A normal fiberglass shower 4' cost $300. An awesome custom granite mixed marble is around 3K. An even more awesome inlaid tile custom shower has ran me as much as 7K. Devil is in the details. That is where you need to make sure the money is. Not plumb labor, frame labor etc.
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 10:24 pm
Posted on 7/30/14 at 10:28 pm to Libertariantiger
Hey man, can you shoot me an email, I'm looking into building a house and have some questions ligerfan594@Gmail.com
Posted on 7/30/14 at 10:39 pm to Libertariantiger
quote:
On number 5, it doesn't matter. I for instance consciously choose to pay more for framers, plumbers, painters and less for brickers, vinyl, and carpet. The price is what it is. Different people put different emphasis. For instance you can find a framer for $1 sqft cheaper on total. Probably save 4k off your price. Doesn't matter, I'm still using my guy and charging the same due to risks involved.
You are asking the right questions though to head down the right path.
Finishes is the biggest determiner of final price. For ex. A normal fiberglass shower 4' cost $300. An awesome custom granite mixed marble is around 3K. An even more awesome inlaid tile custom shower has ran me as much as 7K. Devil is in the details. That is where you need to make sure the money is. Not plumb labor, frame labor etc.
Gotcha. Appreciate the input. In terms of the finishes. All of that cost will be captured in allowances correct? The plumbing, foundation, framing, bricking, will be my base cost and pretty much something I can't change. For someone quoting me $130 sq/ft, it seems like a large chunk of the cost should be finishes. 1st guy didn't give me a good percentage of how much of the cost would be finish dependent (this is when I was try to wrap my head around $80 build versus $130). I asked the 2nd guy for typical allowances on a house that size and he gave me $42.5k. Can you also private message me your email?
Posted on 7/30/14 at 10:50 pm to man117
Yeah guys, I'm about to be in bed, but email me tomorrow. Liger you too.
I may not be the guy for you, but I can help you down the path. I'll shoot you some info on how we do stuff and what to expect. I'm just finishing up a 2800sqft custom with a huge allowance sheet. It's good for karma!
I may not be the guy for you, but I can help you down the path. I'll shoot you some info on how we do stuff and what to expect. I'm just finishing up a 2800sqft custom with a huge allowance sheet. It's good for karma!
This post was edited on 8/2/14 at 10:05 am
Posted on 7/31/14 at 6:47 am to Libertariantiger
$60-65/SF with non-apartment grade finishes with builders fee included? I really hope the OP doesn't use those prices for his loan.
Engineers don't have to stamp house plans. Nor do architects. I would pick plans before you pick a builder. Otherwise, how would you compare prices? They need detailed plans with a schedule of finishes for bids to be even remotely apples to apples.
Again, most people go by SF of living. That's what realtors and appraisers use for comps, it's what's listed on MLS.
Engineers don't have to stamp house plans. Nor do architects. I would pick plans before you pick a builder. Otherwise, how would you compare prices? They need detailed plans with a schedule of finishes for bids to be even remotely apples to apples.
Again, most people go by SF of living. That's what realtors and appraisers use for comps, it's what's listed on MLS.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 7:15 am to aaronb023
$60-$65 total is what base construction is going for, house only. With basic finishes.
In most areas on the south shore, plans most certainly have to have an engineer stamp.
Real estate agents and appraisers do go by living sqft, contractor, builders do not.
Real estate agents and appraisers adjust the living sqft price for different factors such as how much non living the house has, how nice it is, and area. Things like area should make no difference to a builder unless it makes the job more difficult.
To get a proper bid you mainly need the sqft of living and non that you want, a rough sketch of the floor plan off the inter web, and exactly what finishes you want.
In most areas on the south shore, plans most certainly have to have an engineer stamp.
Real estate agents and appraisers do go by living sqft, contractor, builders do not.
Real estate agents and appraisers adjust the living sqft price for different factors such as how much non living the house has, how nice it is, and area. Things like area should make no difference to a builder unless it makes the job more difficult.
To get a proper bid you mainly need the sqft of living and non that you want, a rough sketch of the floor plan off the inter web, and exactly what finishes you want.
This post was edited on 7/31/14 at 7:16 am
Posted on 7/31/14 at 7:30 am to Libertariantiger
Rough sketch = rough estimate
No thanks
No thanks
Posted on 7/31/14 at 8:46 am to man117
$108 is 3500 square feet, granite counter tops, 5" crown moulding with some slightly fancy shite in the living room/entry, 3 stainless steel Frigidaire stoves, 1 cooktop, refrigerator, microwave, granite counter tops, stained concrete, some non-real wood floors in living room, custom build cabinets stain grade, blown fiberglass insulation. 500 of that square feet is bonus room. I can't remember what the windows are but they're energy efficient.
It very much depends on the plans. For instance our initial plan we got from a-hole architects had like $5000 worth of extra wood beams and an upstairs window that was $2000. They also had some curvatures in the walls around corners that would've been highly expensive. The extra gables on the roof and the roofline added like $25000 The devil is in the details.
It very much depends on the plans. For instance our initial plan we got from a-hole architects had like $5000 worth of extra wood beams and an upstairs window that was $2000. They also had some curvatures in the walls around corners that would've been highly expensive. The extra gables on the roof and the roofline added like $25000 The devil is in the details.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 8:52 am to BeerMoney
I should also mention that it could've been lower than $108 per foot but my wife wanted this breezeway which is basically a roof covered part of the driveway that you can't use for shite.(you drive your car through it on to the carport before you pull in to the garage) 300 sq/ft of extra under roof for basically nothing. by my gorilla math it's costing me $15000-$20000 for her to drive a car through part of the house.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 9:24 am to BeerMoney
$108/sf sounds seriously low end for Houma/Thib. Depending on whether you're on the north or south side of that area, you may fall into the higher wind zone ratings, and you may need upgraded windows, etc in order to meet code.
We built custom in the same general area and I can tell you that the shape of your house & window size/placement can have a dramatic effect on pp/sqft. More corners, more money. Pick a builder you trust, work up a sketch plan (including exterior details), and start picking out your desired interior trim. I would NEVER go with cost-plus pricing on a custom build: get an estimate from the builder divided by category--then as you select your various options, you can see where you are over or under and can shift funds into areas/upgraded items that are more important to you.
Porches will run up the cost....as will large windows which might need to be storm rated. Careful planning can head off nasty surprises. I went through four different possible house plans (spec'd out down to the doorknobs) before I found one suitable for my area/budget/taste. Unless you're happy with a builder's cookie cutter french provincial lawyer-foyer square box, you're going to have to spend some time in the prep stages to get it right.
I also had an eye toward resale...so I went with a single story, wider doorways, and walk-in shower. It's suitable for older/mobility challenged folks (a growing segment of the population). Best advice is not to overbuild for your area. You never know what the future holds, and the cheaper houses in a neighborhood always move...while the overbuilt languish.
We built custom in the same general area and I can tell you that the shape of your house & window size/placement can have a dramatic effect on pp/sqft. More corners, more money. Pick a builder you trust, work up a sketch plan (including exterior details), and start picking out your desired interior trim. I would NEVER go with cost-plus pricing on a custom build: get an estimate from the builder divided by category--then as you select your various options, you can see where you are over or under and can shift funds into areas/upgraded items that are more important to you.
Porches will run up the cost....as will large windows which might need to be storm rated. Careful planning can head off nasty surprises. I went through four different possible house plans (spec'd out down to the doorknobs) before I found one suitable for my area/budget/taste. Unless you're happy with a builder's cookie cutter french provincial lawyer-foyer square box, you're going to have to spend some time in the prep stages to get it right.
I also had an eye toward resale...so I went with a single story, wider doorways, and walk-in shower. It's suitable for older/mobility challenged folks (a growing segment of the population). Best advice is not to overbuild for your area. You never know what the future holds, and the cheaper houses in a neighborhood always move...while the overbuilt languish.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 9:38 am to BeerMoney
quote:
$108 is 3500 square feet
3,500 SF living or total?
Posted on 7/31/14 at 10:14 am to hungryone
Ah hell I'm in Prairieville. Sorry I never qualified that.
Posted on 7/31/14 at 10:14 am to Ziggy
3500 living. It's like 4900 under roof.
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