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re: United Methodist Church special session this week

Posted on 2/21/19 at 5:32 pm to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
42423 posts
Posted on 2/21/19 at 5:32 pm to
quote:

Calvinism, to me, completely denies the fairness and righteousness of God.
That assumes God owes us something good (like a chance at salvation), which He doesn't.

What we are owed is the wages of our sin, which is (spiritual) death. We are owed damnation. It's, therefore, "unfair" for God to save anyone from that fate, but thankfully God shows mercy to us instead of giving us what we are owed.

quote:

Why would God allow a person to be born that He was going to cast into hell without giving that person a chance to choose between God (Christ) and Satan?
Paul in Romans chapter 9 says it better than I could, but to summarize: to display His might and glory by showing His love and mercy towards those who don't deserve it (His elect).

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
-Romans 9:14-23

quote:

The bible says "God is love" and a God of love is not going to do that.
Why not? God is more than love. He's a God of wrath and vengeance. He's a god of justice. What we are owed is God's wrath against our sin and He owes us nothing good, especially salvation. He shows His love by saving some who don't deserve it.

quote:

If Calvinism is to be believed, there is no reason to preach the gospel because the "predestined" will be brought into the fold regardless.
God is a God of means. The Gospel message is what God uses to bring His elect (the predestined) to a saving faith in Christ. We preach because we don't know who the elect are but we know that God will use the Gospel to accomplish salvation for His people.

On the flip side, we can have confidence in the power of God by knowing that it isn't up to us to try to convince someone to believe the Gospel. It's up to God to use our feeble and imperfect speech and communications to work in the hearts of the elect hearers by His Spirit. We can be bold and preach with confidence because we know that we can't screw it up; God will save His people by His power, not ours.

quote:

There is a lot more support in the bible for free will, salvation by grace than for predestination.
With all due respect, it's a mistake to believe that free will is the opposite of predestination. It's actually total depravity that is the opposite of a free will. Predestination is clearly taught in the Bible, as I said in a previous post. The difference in belief comes with how people are predestined: does God choose us based on what we do, or does He choose based on His own good pleasure?

With that said, I believe that it is far easier to accommodate the "free will" verses into a Calvinistic doctrinal system than it is to accommodate the "total depravity" verses into an Arminian doctrinal system.
This post was edited on 2/21/19 at 9:54 pm
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
73988 posts
Posted on 2/21/19 at 5:35 pm to
quote:

That assumes God owes us something good (like a chance at salvation), which He doesn't.


That's why the idea of really any version of a god is pretty fricked up if you actually dig into it. If this story is to be believed, of course this god would owe his creation something. If not, he's a dick, at a minimum.
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