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re: Russia's Victory Day 2015 Parade

Posted on 5/10/15 at 7:28 pm to
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
16932 posts
Posted on 5/10/15 at 7:28 pm to
quote:

A common myth in the U.S., however, the data does not support this conclusion.


I suppose you are referring to my assertion that the USSR would not have been able to defeat Germany absent US aid and intervention since it's very difficult to refute that FDR was a Soviet sympathizer through and through. And your little referenced quote does not do anything to indicate that the Soviets would have defeated Nazi Germany absent US intervention.

There is very little minimization of Soviet resources in regard to manpower. Their pool of manpower to draw from and land in which to keep their production centers outside of peril from German bombers or capture was immense. That, however, in and of itself, would not have been enough for them to march to Berlin absent US technological and material aid and the effect of US intervention into the war. Yes the USSR displayed tremendous production capabilities in WWII, no one disputes this. But the aid the USSR received from the US and Britain allowed them to conduct, maintain, and sustain massive offensives logistically that they otherwise would have had severe difficulty with. There is much more to winning modern wars than simply producing lots of weapons. The supply of trucks to maintain fast and long moving supply lines in a timely fashion so as to sustain and exploit penetrating offensives was of the utmost importance to the Soviet war effort. That is a technological AND material asset provided to the USSR that itself completely transformed their military capabilities. Rail cars, food stuffs, raw materials, etc. There is a tremendous deal that went into bolstering the Soviet production numbers as well as their ability to fully employ and take advantage of their production through military logistics. Logistics was essential to the fast, penetrative, and decisive style of warfare that was necessary for success in the European theater in WWII. Simply referencing Soviet production capacity is not a valid argument to suggest their ultimate victory over Germany absent US intervention. Otherwise, how does it explain the events of 1941? Economy and production are merely FACTORS in military success.

US intervention was THE deciding factor in WWII. The USSR perhaps could have forced a draw or even taken back a deal of territory, but a drive to Berlin absent US aid and intervention was very unlikely. The British would have been impotent to pose any real threat to Germany at this point as well. US and British bombing campaigns put severe strain on Germany's already limited resources for oil. The Luftwaffe was forced in the latter stages of the war to dedicate immense assets to fighting the Allied bombers, which offered the Soviets even greater domination of the skies in their successful post-1943 operations.

The Soviets were a tremendous force during the Second World War, but they still required the massive resources and efforts of the Western Allies to ultimately defeat Germany in May 1945. Now imagine the US never enters the war at all and offers no supplies the USSR at all. What does a timeline for Soviet victory over Germany look like now? What does it look like if Britain and Germany come to terms? I'd say it looks not particularly good.
This post was edited on 5/10/15 at 7:30 pm
Posted by Vito Andolini
Member since Sep 2009
1879 posts
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:34 am to
quote:

I suppose you are referring to my assertion that the USSR would not have been able to defeat Germany absent US aid and intervention since it's very difficult to refute that FDR was a Soviet sympathizer through and through. And your little referenced quote does not do anything to indicate that the Soviets would have defeated Nazi Germany absent US intervention.

There is very little minimization of Soviet resources in regard to manpower. Their pool of manpower to draw from and land in which to keep their production centers outside of peril from German bombers or capture was immense. That, however, in and of itself, would not have been enough for them to march to Berlin absent US technological and material aid and the effect of US intervention into the war. Yes the USSR displayed tremendous production capabilities in WWII, no one disputes this. But the aid the USSR received from the US and Britain allowed them to conduct, maintain, and sustain massive offensives logistically that they otherwise would have had severe difficulty with. There is much more to winning modern wars than simply producing lots of weapons. The supply of trucks to maintain fast and long moving supply lines in a timely fashion so as to sustain and exploit penetrating offensives was of the utmost importance to the Soviet war effort. That is a technological AND material asset provided to the USSR that itself completely transformed their military capabilities. Rail cars, food stuffs, raw materials, etc. There is a tremendous deal that went into bolstering the Soviet production numbers as well as their ability to fully employ and take advantage of their production through military logistics. Logistics was essential to the fast, penetrative, and decisive style of warfare that was necessary for success in the European theater in WWII. Simply referencing Soviet production capacity is not a valid argument to suggest their ultimate victory over Germany absent US intervention. Otherwise, how does it explain the events of 1941? Economy and production are merely FACTORS in military success.

US intervention was THE deciding factor in WWII. The USSR perhaps could have forced a draw or even taken back a deal of territory, but a drive to Berlin absent US aid and intervention was very unlikely. The British would have been impotent to pose any real threat to Germany at this point as well. US and British bombing campaigns put severe strain on Germany's already limited resources for oil. The Luftwaffe was forced in the latter stages of the war to dedicate immense assets to fighting the Allied bombers, which offered the Soviets even greater domination of the skies in their successful post-1943 operations.

The Soviets were a tremendous force during the Second World War, but they still required the massive resources and efforts of the Western Allies to ultimately defeat Germany in May 1945. Now imagine the US never enters the war at all and offers no supplies the USSR at all. What does a timeline for Soviet victory over Germany look like now? What does it look like if Britain and Germany come to terms? I'd say it looks not particularly good.




It is all hypothetical of course, but I tend to disagree. When one considers that the German advance was halted at Stalingrad a mere 8 months after Pearl Harbor (i.e. before we were even in the game), and that by 1943-1944 the Soviets were outproducing Germany in war material, it is logical to conclude that the Soviets would have defeated Germany even without the U.S.

With that having been said, having the U.S. in the war certainly made things better for the Soviets (and of course the British), and probably resulted in shortening the war by a year or so.
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