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re: How were German armored divisions so much more elite than their US counterparts

Posted on 10/25/14 at 2:48 pm to
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
16930 posts
Posted on 10/25/14 at 2:48 pm to
quote:

Meh. There was nothing left of the spirit of Napoleon by 1940.


You mentioned Prussia's history dating back 8 to 10 centuries as being relevant to Germany's military resistance in WWII, which is why I mentioned even more recent French and British military traditions to point out that these traditions were in fact NOT pertinent to their attitudes and conditions in WWII. And that if one could make such an argument for Germany's traditions dating back centuries, then the exact same argument would actually be stronger and far more applicable to the French and British. I reject the argument all together.

quote:

Rolled up in 6 weeks is all you need to know.


I disagree with this simplification of the French effort in WWII as well. Their military defeat was largely due to strategic error and a very new style of warfare of which their enemy was highly skilled and they were not. Their troops were in poor position once the thrust through the Ardennes occurred and they were effectively dead in the water with the concentrated German mechanized drive to the coast.

French military tradition and spirit was high, though domestically they were in a bit of turmoil. Had the British been geographically located in France and vice versa, the British would have been crushed as well and the French likely would have prevailed given the same course of American/Soviet entry into the war. The dismissal of French effort or ability in WWII is a common misconception.

quote:

And little was left of British ground capability, whether that was a recoil from WWI, or the continued over-reliance upon the Royal Navy - they were little better than we were in N. Africa, and we quickly passed them despite less combat experience.


Again, I was pointing out French and British recent military tradition and culture to counter your reference to Prussian military culture and tradition, not as some argument for British ground superiority. Germany and France were always the land powers in Europe. Always.

quote:

That's a truism, but belies the fact that Prussia was the driving force in the creation of Germany in the first place. For the most part, they did not merge the armies into a German army in 1871, but, rather the Prussian army absorbed the others and changed names.


I understand the significance of Prussia to Germany's military organization and leadership. It's well documented and established, particularly with the officer corps. My rejection was of the notion of Prussian historical militarism as the reason for Germany's performance and remarkable spirit of effective resistance against what became insurmountable odds.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89646 posts
Posted on 10/25/14 at 2:59 pm to
quote:

You mentioned Prussia's history dating back 8 to 10 centuries


I said 8 to 10 generations.

quote:

why I mentioned even more recent French and British military traditions to point


France went from inspiring/beating/ultimately succumbing to a massive international coalition, to losing to just Prussia, to getting rolled up in 6 weeks. Prussia went from kicking butt and taking names, to leading Germany against pretty much the entire world except Japan and Italy.

Britain's military tradition has been anchored on the Royal Navy for almost all of its history, going all the way back to the English tradition. I didn't denigrate the Royal Navy during WWII.

quote:

I reject the argument all together.


We'll just have to agree to disagree.

quote:

Their military defeat was largely due to strategic error and a very new style of warfare of which their enemy was highly skilled and they were not.


Now, this is true. It is almost impossible for tactical acumen to overcome strategic blunders - while strategic genius can overcome any number of tactical failures and even some operational ones.

quote:

My rejection was of the notion of Prussian historical militarism as the reason for Germany's performance and remarkable spirit of effective resistance against what became insurmountable odds.


And I can concede that the German people, generally, were pretty motivated for the early part of the war, and their inherent strength showed until the bitter end. Not limited to just Prussians, although it is impossible to ignore the Prussian influence on German military traditions.
Posted by Tom288
Jacksonville
Member since Apr 2009
21015 posts
Posted on 10/26/14 at 6:20 pm to
quote:

Their military defeat was largely due to strategic error and a very new style of warfare of which their enemy was highly skilled and they were not.


Aside from their tank deployments being spread out vs. concentrated formations used by the Germans, I think one of the biggest and often most neglected strategic errors committed by the French was their failure to open up the Western front in 1939/early 1940 when the majority of the Wehrmacht was still concentrated in Poland. By doing so they could have largely eliminated the German advantage provided by the use of concentrated armored thrusts as they would have been placed on the defensive. Let's not forget that the French had a better tank at this time as well, and it's a shame that they didn't learn from the success of the German armored advance into Poland and instead decided on maintaining a defensive posture largely due to the psychological impact that still lingered from the First World War.
This post was edited on 10/26/14 at 6:22 pm
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