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Charlie Mac and Les Miles

Posted on 12/8/09 at 8:51 am
Posted by FTL Tiger
Fort Lauderdale
Member since Jun 2008
540 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 8:51 am
During the 5 years Les has guided our program, my emotions have run the gamut. I defended him vigorously at the beginning of his helm and it reached a peak in 2007 when he turned down the Michigan job and led us to a National Championship. I was at the game and on Bourbon street afterwards partying like crazy when Les gets out of the limo, climbs to the balcony of one of the hotels, and holds up the BCS Crystal Ball. Everyone went nuts. I can remember thinking that Saban would never have done this, and I was glad that Miles related so well to the average fan and that he was our coach.

Fast forward to last year. I was very disappointed in the record, but was willing to forgive because of the QB situation. This year I began to have more and more doubts about the coaching; specifically the numerous delay of game penalties & illegal formations. I was also extremely frustrated with the refusal to continue running the ball when successful. Make the other team STOP IT. I don't care if you call the same play 10 times in a row if it continues to work! My frustration reached a peak during the Ole Miss game. I had seen enough and knew it was time for a change. However, the Arkansas game the following week showed me a bit about Miles character and his abilty to continue to get his players to play hard. and gave me a little change of heart. I was again torn about Miles.

I like Miles as a person. He's a good man, a great recruiter, and an average, to above average coach. I know there is no way LSU will fire him this year; especially with the large buyout. I hope he turns things around next year. I would love for him to be at LSU long term and be very successful. Part of my frustration has been watching Saban turn around Alabama so quickly when I expected it would take him at least 4 years, not 2 years. I'm having many of the same feelings about Miles as I had for Charlie Mac many years ago. CM was a very good Man and was 110% faithful to LSU, but I got tired of always finishing 2nd to Alabama. I was ready for a change, but once change was made, it was a disaster. I'm leery of changing coaches because although there may be slight upside, there is also considerable downside.

I do feel however, that changes need to be made on the Offensive side of the ball. Although I was a big proponent of Crowton in 2007, I think his scheme is too complex for most college athletes, especially younger QBs. I also think Stud needs to go because the Line was terrible this year, and I can't remember a worse O Line performance in the past 10 years.

In conclusion, I hope some changes are made and I hope LSU wins the SECW next year. I hope we beat Bama and that Miles is here for many, many years. On the other hand, if we regress next year. I regretfully think we need a new head coach.

How many of you (who are old enough) think we are in a similar situation now that we were in at the end of Charlie Mac's tenure? Do you think Miles and Charlie Mac are the same type of coach (good but not great?) Also, how many of you felt badly when CM was let go?
This post was edited on 12/8/09 at 9:30 am
Posted by cajunjj
Madison, AL
Member since May 2008
7427 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 8:53 am to
YES.
Posted by Tiger_n_ATL
Atlanta
Member since Jul 2005
33137 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:11 am to
quote:

How many of you (who are old enough) think we are in a similar situation now that we were in at the end of Charlie Mac's tenure? Do you think Miles and Charlie Mac are the same type of coach (good but not great?) Also, how many of you felt badly when CM was let go?

Miles = Cholly Mac, just in a different era.

- behind the times
- slow to make changes
- stubborn
- 8-9 win coach maximum
- conservative
- poor public persona
Posted by Godfather1
What WAS St George, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
87307 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:14 am to
quote:

Miles = Cholly Mac, just in a different era.

- behind the times
- slow to make changes
- stubborn
- 8-9 win coach maximum
- conservative
- poor public persona


What he said.
Posted by Tigeritaville
Tropics
Member since Sep 2009
242 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:18 am to
Miles is in way over his head. All you have to do is listen to him try to speak the english language and struggle to form and finish a complete sentence! And then flat out lie about Ole Miss situations at end of game! 8-8 SEC record last 2 years, and even last 3 years SEC record only of 14-10! And Bama, after having to recover from Shula's regime, has a 3 year SEC record of I think 20-4 or 21-5, and has gone flying by LSU, when our program had been at the top of the mountain. And overall record last 3 years of 29 - 10, and Bama at 32 - 8, with LSU having current 2 game losing streaks to Florida, Bama, and Ole Miss, and easily could have a 3 game slide to Arkansas! And Miles currently does have a 3 game losing streak to Houston Nutt! But beyond the numbers is lack of developement of players, silly penalties, constant false starts and big mistakes throughout the year and late in the year especially! Miles has always been a clodhopper buffoon to me, but finally the rest of the country has really seen what an idiot coach we have here! He is an embarrasment to the university and especially the fans! But more importantly, he is dragging LSU football down with him, and beyond mediocrity. LSU is no longer a powerhouse, and other teams damn sure don't fear LSU anymore, not as long as they see Chuckles on our sideline as the head coach. Just like when Bobby Knight said during the Indiana LSU basketball game back in 87' with the winner heading to the Final 4 in New Orleans. He said " we were down and we were out, but then I looked down at the other bench and saw Dale Brown (coaching LSU), and I knew we had a chance. Well, that now is how it is when pretty much ANYBODY plays LSU in football these days! All they have to do is look at the other sideline and see Blockhead coaching LSU, and they know they have a chance!
Posted by Manswers
Michigan
Member since Feb 2009
3706 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:19 am to
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miles = Cholly Mac, just in a different era.

- behind the times
- slow to make changes
- stubborn
- 8-9 win coach maximum
- conservative
- poor public persona
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sorry, but I don't see any of those. Miles has been an 8-win minimum coach. The national media call him the "Mad Hatter" b/c of his "gambling" style. Say what you want about his offense (Crowton) but it is not behind the times. His speaking style could be better but I believe he is universally respected as a man and as someone who runs a good program.

Also, I remember Cholly Mac as a kid and thought he was a super guy. His tenure was truly the golden age of LSU football until the past decade. I'm glad we kept him as long as we did.
This post was edited on 12/8/09 at 9:21 am
Posted by seawolf06
NH
Member since Oct 2007
8159 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:22 am to
Can someone post a sticky that $18MM is not his buyout amount?
Posted by Dobermann
Member since Sep 2008
2037 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:26 am to
quote:

8-9 win coach maximum

11-2
11-2
12-2
8-5
10-3 or 9-4

More like 8-9 win minimum

quote:

slow to make changes

Malveto was dealt with appropriately and in a timely fashion. McCarthy too.
Posted by Tigeritaville
Tropics
Member since Sep 2009
242 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:38 am to
Malveto should have never happened pal, and had horrible year because of it! You shouldn't get to just waste a year, and then say it was dealt with properly! That's bullshite! You are paid 4 mill a year and you make such a clusterfrick defensive hire or hires, and you think it was dealt with ok? It should have never happened! And the overall play of this years team, and it's vaunted 108th ranked offense, has been pretty pathetic all year long, regardless of the record! LSU didn't beat one team that was worth much of a shite, and struggled like hell to beat almost every team they did beat, other than Auburn!
Posted by blueridgeTiger
Granbury, TX
Member since Jun 2004
22012 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:48 am to
quote:

Do you think Miles and Charlie Mac are the same type of coach (good but not great?) Also, how many of you felt badly when CM was let go?


I was a student at LSU when Cholly Mac became head coach at the end of the 61 season. I thought that was a good decision to promote him. He was not as articulate nor as flamboyant as his predecessor. It was sometimes painful to watch his tv interviews.

His first team, the 1962 Tigers was stocked with talent (which as Assistant Coach he had help recruit and develop). An opening season tie by Rice and a late season loss to the Rebels denied him a possible championship (finished 7th and then beat #4 Texas in the Cotton Bowl). An off-the-cuff remark by his predecessor seemed to claim much of the credit for that team's success.

Real success eluded Mac for his entire career at LSU. His only conference championship team (the 1970 Tigers) finished the season with three OOC losses. Although during his 18 years as Tiger HC only one SEC team had more wins (guess who!), he had the reputation of not being able to win the big ones.

Although I had been a big fan of Mac when he was hired, over the years I got somewhat frustrated at coming up short in the SEC. It was sad to see him fired, particularly the administration bringing in Peposident Paul to do the job, but I think most fans were ready for a change. Bo Rein had the "look of the eagles", but even if he had not been killed and had major success at LSU, it's likely he would have moved on.

It's really too soon to tell whether LM will be more like Cholly Mac or whether he can be a real factor in the SEC and national title hunts.
Posted by Dobermann
Member since Sep 2008
2037 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:49 am to
quote:

You shouldn't get to just waste a year, and then say it was dealt with properly


You obviously have never managed people before. Miles has to maintain a reputation as a good boss to work for if he wants to attract quality assistants/coordinators in the future. It doesn't take long to make a bad name for yourself.

quote:

you make such a clusterfrick defensive hire or hires


These guys were on staff in 2007, who was calling for their heads then?? Miles wanted to maintain some continuity in scheme, etc. and it proved to be a poor decision...no one saw 2008 coming.

quote:

And the overall play of this years team, and it's vaunted 108th ranked offense, has been pretty pathetic all year long, regardless of the record


Agreed about the offense and there will be new staff in place next year.
Posted by greek_tiger
Hattiesburg MS
Member since Sep 2004
279 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:51 am to
quote:

Miles = Charlie Mac (Posted on 10/11/09 at 5:39 p.m.)


quote:

Good coach, underappreciated. Will always win 8-10 games a year. Never be able to have sustained success against the Alabamas and Floridas of the league. Consistant top 15 teams. Probably no more national titles in the near future. Down the road, he will have a legacy and be recognized at LSU if he remains here.


I said this a while back and got a lot of flack for it, but lately this comparison is becoming more and more popular...
This post was edited on 12/8/09 at 9:53 am
Posted by Knoxville Tiger
Dayton, OH
Member since Sep 2003
475 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 9:57 am to
FTL Tiger, My sentiments exactly. I agonized through many years knowing that we were going to finish second to Bama.
Posted by JawjaTigah
On the Bandwagon
Member since Sep 2003
22861 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 11:35 am to
quote:

Do you think Miles and Charlie Mac are the same type of coach (good but not great?) Also, how many of you felt badly when CM was let go?

Miles = Cholly Mac, just in a different era.

- behind the times
- slow to make changes
- stubborn
- 8-9 win coach maximum
- conservative
- poor public persona


1. Similarities, but Mac was a defensive genius.
2. Mac was under fire from the Pro-Dietzel crowd from day 1 (like the pro-Saban element today).
3. I felt really badly when CM was fired; it was poorly done... like a bucket of cold water dumped on him. I think it needed to be handled with dignity and respect, but that didn't exactly come across in how it panned out. Not until years later did all LSU fans realize what a great guy and program asset Cholly Mac was for LSU.
Posted by Baloo
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
49645 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 11:49 am to
quote:

I was ready for a change, but once change was made, it was a disaster. I'm leery of changing coaches because although there may be slight upside, there is also considerable downside.

People completely ignore this part. If you fire Miles, it's not like you suddenly get Kelly or Harbaugh. People complained under Mack, only to find out what real losing was really about.
Posted by Tiger_n_ATL
Atlanta
Member since Jul 2005
33137 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 11:57 am to
quote:

Sorry, but I don't see any of those. Miles has been an 8-win minimum coach
"has-been" being the operative word here, not "will be"

slow to make changes means he waits until after the year is over and the clusterfrick has happened, before he makes a move. Also, letting coaches who suck balls get a reward for sucking balls by letting them coach in a bowl game and get their bonus is another example of 'soft' coaching style and poor management skills. You don't reward people for mediocrity.
This post was edited on 12/8/09 at 11:59 am
Posted by PurpleNGold4Ever
Louisiana
Member since Sep 2009
273 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 12:00 pm to
Really have to think it's time for Tiger-n-Atlanta should keep his opinions in Atlanta and enjoy the successes of Georgia Tech. We neither need or want your garbage here.
Posted by Manswers
Michigan
Member since Feb 2009
3706 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 12:02 pm to
Exactly. I've been in Ann Arbor for five years. Folks here couldn't push Lloyd Carr out fast enough. Consistent 9-2 but couldn't beat rival Ohio State. UM hired the hot name at the time - Rodriguez (who also was considered by BAMA before they lured Saban from the Dolphins). These have been Hallman-type years for UM the last two years.

You guys who come on here cursing and saying we should fire Miles because he makes us look bad need to look long and hard into the mirror. Sounds like you don't need anyone to help you in that regard.
Posted by PurpleNGold4Ever
Louisiana
Member since Sep 2009
273 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 12:07 pm to
Good post FTL. Have run the same roller coaster with you across the same era. LM may not be the "greatest coach ever", but I do hope he's here a long time and brings us many more SEC and BCS Championships. He's a man of character and we've missed that since Mac and maybe Arnsparger.

We too oft seen the results of Archer, Hallman and Dinardo (and the others). Character, loyalty and class have gained us national recognition and respect. Ole Miss was a terrible mistake, and at least he manned up and took it, held the team together, and beat Arkansas. Hope I don't get fired for each mistake I've made at work....I'd have a lot of jobs......

Let's go to Orlando, win it, regroup for next year and give consideration to an OC change....and win the West in 2010....ready for another title!!!
Posted by Manswers
Michigan
Member since Feb 2009
3706 posts
Posted on 12/8/09 at 12:08 pm to
Is that how you manage people? Fire someone who has consistently brought results and held the ship together during difficult times? Fire an assistant and deny him a bonus because you thought he was mediocre? Sorry, but you wouldn't last long in the top job with those sorts of ethics or management style.

You need get over your anger and put the Ole Miss loss behind you. Miles is not going to be fired. If it is just too hard, go pull for the Saints the rest of the season and forget about this. I'm behind Miles, Crowton, and the team and will acknowledge that this year Alabama and Florida had better teams. We should have beaten Ole Miss, but we came up short that day. That is reality.
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