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Message
1
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:59 am to Haughton99
quote:
This has always been my argument. If you go to Germany do you see monuments to great Nazi leaders everywhere? The Confederacy is a shameful part of our nation's history.
Do you see statues of the Kaiser? Yes. What about Napoleon? Yep. What about Oliver Cromwell? Yep.
Heres even a list of all of the statues remaining for Stalin
You need to read more.
This post was edited on 4/24/17 at 10:01 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:59 am to RFK
Huh? The US defeated the frick out of the Native Americans and they have stuff named for them everywhere (as well they should imho)
Not sure what being defeated has to do with it.
Not sure what being defeated has to do with it.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:00 am to RFK
quote:It is them, not we, who built what are now historic artifacts -be they monuments, laws, or paradigms of government.
Why Do We
By ascribing all such memorials to us (we), you are making the same mistake that so many do: projecting your current sensibilities and perspective back in time onto people that did not have the benefit of your 20/20 hindsight or, in the vast majority of cases, share (much less, perhaps, even conceive) the values and knowledge that have been created and obtained since a given point in time.
Where (or when) does this urge to 'cleanse' history so that it matches our contemporary sensibilities end? And if there is such a proscribed boundary, who is it exactly that decides its terms?
Deleting memorials and artifacts seems to be a heightened form of willful ignorance.
Very 1984, this entire impulse is...
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:00 am to NYNolaguy1
Yep, and the german military still reveres Rommel, who like Lee, was one of the greatest of all time tacticians who just so halpened to fight for the losing side.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:00 am to RFK
quote:
Why Do We Even Honor CSA Leaders, A Country We Defeated?
quote:"We"?
Virginia Fan
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:01 am to kingbob
quote:
Yep, and the german military still reveres Rommel, who like Lee, was one of the greatest of all time tacticians who just so halpened to fight for the losing side.
Hell there are two portraits of Lee in West Point still standing.
This post was edited on 4/24/17 at 10:03 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:03 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:The liberals will soon wear pussy hats to have these removed.
Hell there are two portraits of Lee in West Point still standing.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:05 am to Covingtontiger77
quote:
1) Lincoln stance during Reconstruction wherein he decided NOT to label the CSA leaders traitors and eventually tried and hung was a mistake; he did this in the name of healing the country. If you label them traitors than the monuments are not erected, schools and streets not named after them
You are correct. On the last day of his life he was asked whether a southern agent caught in Vermont should be arrested as SecWar Stanton insisted. He answered: "When you have an elephant by the hind leg, it is best to let go."
He did not want southern leaders prosecuted for treason. That would not help the healing but it has led to much confusion.
Lincoln clearly called the southern leaders what they were - traitors.
"It might seem at first thought to be of little difference whether the present movement at the South be called "secession" or "rebellion." The movers, however, well understand the difference. At the beginning they knew they could never raise their treason to any respectable magnitude by any name which implies violation of law. They knew their people possessed as much of moral sense, as much of devotion to law and order, and as much pride in and reverence for the history and Government of their common country as any other civilized and patriotic people. They knew they could make no advancement directly in the teeth of these strong and noble sentiments. Accordingly, they commenced by an insidious debauching of the public mind. They invented an ingenious sophism, which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps through all the incidents to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any State of the Union may consistently with the National Constitution, and therefore lawfully and peacefully , withdraw from the Union without the consent of the Union or of any other State. The little disguise that the supposed right is to be exercised only for just cause, themselves to be the sole judge of its justice, is too thin to merit any notice."
7/4/61
LINK
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:08 am to RFK
what truly blows my mind is this specific monument was to the "White League" rebelling against the reconstruction government and taking over for three days.
how the frick could anybody be against removing this one specifically?
how the frick could anybody be against removing this one specifically?
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:09 am to kingbob
quote:
Yes, there are monuments to explorers and royal-backed founders like Lord Baltimore.
My point exactly. We have monuments (and cities) named after evil British Royalists and no one bats an eye (or will they? Probably in the future if it's a white male, it will be taken down).
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:11 am to NYNolaguy1
Reconstruction harden the South.
What people forget is that the yankee carpetbaggers installed puppet governments in much of the South using the votes of slaves. Women couldn't vote and no Confederate veteran could vote.
Blacks were for the most part illiterate but held many of the political offices and did what the carpetbaggers wanted. The often time imposed huge taxes forcing sales of property the carpetbaggers wanted.
"Birth of a Nation" is good film to watch to understand the white point of view at the time. The thing to understand while watching is that many of the people involved in the film and much of the audience had first hand experience with reconstruction.
I wonder if people today would behave any differently than they did in 1870 or 1880 if similar circumstances existed?
Certainly this post war animosity added fuel to the legends of the Southern leaders and emboldened the citizenry to erect such monuments.
What people forget is that the yankee carpetbaggers installed puppet governments in much of the South using the votes of slaves. Women couldn't vote and no Confederate veteran could vote.
Blacks were for the most part illiterate but held many of the political offices and did what the carpetbaggers wanted. The often time imposed huge taxes forcing sales of property the carpetbaggers wanted.
"Birth of a Nation" is good film to watch to understand the white point of view at the time. The thing to understand while watching is that many of the people involved in the film and much of the audience had first hand experience with reconstruction.
I wonder if people today would behave any differently than they did in 1870 or 1880 if similar circumstances existed?
Certainly this post war animosity added fuel to the legends of the Southern leaders and emboldened the citizenry to erect such monuments.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:12 am to skrayper
The Confederacy had very little to do with state's rights and very much to do with slavery and the oppression of blacks.
"Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system.
The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material — the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so.
It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory. The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws." -Alexander Stephens, VP of the Confederacy
"A proclamation, dated on January 1, 1863, signed and issued by the President of the United States, orders and declares all slaves within ten of the States of the Confederacy to be free, except such as are found in certain districts now occupied in part by the armed forces of the enemy.
We may well leave it to the instinct of that common humanity, which a beneficent Creator has implanted in the breasts of our fellow-men of all countries, to pass judgment on a measure by which several millions of human beings of an inferior race — peaceful, contented laborers in their sphere — are doomed to extermination, while at the same time they are encouraged to a general assassination of their masters by the insidious recommendation “to abstain from violence, unless in necessary self-defense.” -Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederacy
"Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system.
The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material — the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so.
It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory. The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws." -Alexander Stephens, VP of the Confederacy
"A proclamation, dated on January 1, 1863, signed and issued by the President of the United States, orders and declares all slaves within ten of the States of the Confederacy to be free, except such as are found in certain districts now occupied in part by the armed forces of the enemy.
We may well leave it to the instinct of that common humanity, which a beneficent Creator has implanted in the breasts of our fellow-men of all countries, to pass judgment on a measure by which several millions of human beings of an inferior race — peaceful, contented laborers in their sphere — are doomed to extermination, while at the same time they are encouraged to a general assassination of their masters by the insidious recommendation “to abstain from violence, unless in necessary self-defense.” -Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederacy
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:12 am to kingbob
quote:
donated his plantation to create Arlington National Cemetery,
Arlington was NOT donated, it was seized by the Federal Government.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:15 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
Hell there are two portraits of Lee in West Point still standing.
Do they have any of Benedict Arnold who seems to have a very similar profile to Lee?
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:19 am to AUstar
quote:
I wonder if there's any monuments in, say, Virginia or Mass. to British leaders prior to the revolution. (I don't know, I am asking).
A contemporary mounted statue of King George III was melted down for bullets.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:21 am to The Maj
quote:
donated his plantation to create Arlington National Cemetery,
Arlington was NOT donated, it was seized by the Federal Government.
Seized in fact by U.S. Army general Montgomery Meigs, a Georgian. His son was killed fighting the rebels.
So he started planting dead federal soldiers in Lee's front yard.
This post was edited on 4/24/17 at 10:23 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:24 am to montanagator
quote:
Do they have any of Benedict Arnold who seems to have a very similar profile to Lee?
One was a spy and a literal traitor (Arnold). The other lawfully resigned his commission and decided to fight for the other side (Lee).
There's a big difference.
This post was edited on 4/24/17 at 10:30 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:28 am to WhiskeyPapa
More Tennesseans died as Union POW's at Andersonville prison than from any other state.
1,284 is almost 10% of the total dead at Andersonville.
51,000 Tennesseans fought for Union, Progress and Freedom and against the traitors in gray.
1,284 is almost 10% of the total dead at Andersonville.
51,000 Tennesseans fought for Union, Progress and Freedom and against the traitors in gray.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:31 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
One was a spy and a liter traitor. The other lawfully resigned his commission and decided to fight for the other side.
Lee clearly committed treason against the United States. But he wasn't prosecuted. That doesn't change the facts.
And he knew that, thinking he might be Grant's prisoner after surrendering his army to Grant at Appomattox.
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