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Message
re: Why Do We Even Honor CSA Leaders, A Country We Defeated?
Posted on 4/24/17 at 8:55 am to DawgsLife
Posted on 4/24/17 at 8:55 am to DawgsLife
Statues in memorium are hardly the same thing as a concentration camp that tells of the horrors a government did.
By your rationale we should have Andersonville prison reconstituted as a tour site, not name high schools after CSA generals.
I'm sorry but this is one of the thinner arguments I've seen. I doubt there are any statues of Goebbels or 'Hitler High Schools' in Germany
By your rationale we should have Andersonville prison reconstituted as a tour site, not name high schools after CSA generals.
I'm sorry but this is one of the thinner arguments I've seen. I doubt there are any statues of Goebbels or 'Hitler High Schools' in Germany
1
Posted on 4/24/17 at 8:59 am to RFK
Check out the bust of this guy at a government facility. This guy was responsible for killing many Jews as well as terrorizing and killing women and children in the UK during WW2 but no one is calling for its removal.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:04 am to upgrayedd
quote:
but no one is calling for its removal.
ehhhhhh
considering his name has been removed from other things (like schools), I'm willing to bet some have and/or calling for its removal
This post was edited on 4/24/17 at 9:05 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:04 am to Haughton99
quote:
This has always been my argument. If you go to Germany do you see monuments to great Nazi leaders everywhere? The Confederacy is a shameful part of our nation's history.
So if the Confederacy is a shameful part of our history because of slavery and none of it's figures or icons should be honored because of this, what was the portion of our history from 1776-1860? I guess it should all be condemned. Hell, the founding of the country must therefore be shameful if your reasoning is logically extended. Better take down that Washington monument in DC. Might want to redesign the flag too considering the stars and stripes represented a slave state for nearly 100 years.
Right?
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:05 am to Haughton99
quote:
Auschwitz is a "monument to great Nazi leaders" as I said in my post? I'm almost 100% sure if there were a museum in New Orleans that was set up to display evidence of Confederate atrocities and to the poor treatment of slaves that there wouldn't be a push from anyone to have it shut down.
It's all in the way you choose to interpret them. Just having a statue of a Confederate General and you choose to say it is to honor the Civil War and disobedience. Couldn't someone see the Concentration Camps and jump to the conclusion that they support the atrocities?
We all see the Concentration camps for what they are because of the POV we take. Same for the statues Robert E. Lee...it's all in the POV you choose to take. I think of Lee as a man of character. My personal favorite, though was Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.
Just because there is a statue to them doesn't mean people are happy with slavery. I think everybody agrees that it was a horrible chapter in our country's history.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:06 am to RFK
Why do we honor native Americans by naming some of our military aircraft after them? We kicked their asses.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:07 am to RFK
quote:
Why Do We Even Honor CSA Leaders, A Country We Defeated?
Because of a miscomphrehension of what actually happened. Southern resistance to the lawful government was ineffectual. The opinion in Europe was the rebellion could not be subdued. The insurgent area was actually larger than the loyal area.
The government in Richmond couldn't raise money -- there was very little real capital in the south and almost no industry. It could not arm or supply its armies in the field. At a time when 5,000 rifles a week were being produced in the north in 44 different factories, the south struggled to produce 100 a week.
Even the best rebel officers were only good enough generals to cause a blood bath every time they took the field.
Southern armies, far from being defeated on the field, mostly melted away and went home because the soldiers' families were starving and destitute.
I write this having ancestors of distinguished rebel service. That I know of on my mother's side - in the 25th, 31st and 39th Alabama infantry.
My great-great uncle Wilson Parks Howell was wounded four times and was in every battle of the Army of Tennessee except Franklin as a member of the 25th Alabama Infantry.
Shooting 4 Men For Desertion
Saturday, July 4, 2009
Following the Civil War, efforts were made to collect information pertaining to the war for permanent archive records. Captain Wilson Parks Howell, leader of Company I, 25th Alabama Regiment, of Cleburne County, Al., was chosen to write a history of his regiment which he did and brilliantly so.
Captain Howell was a prominent Methodist minister and a most respected politician who helped formulate the 1901 Alabama Constitution and a charter for the city of Anniston. He also served in the Alabama legislature and was a surveyor for his county. He was the father of 10 children, was born in 1832 and died in 1911. He was the brother of my great-great-grandmother, Malinda Howell Grubbs."
LINK
This article was written by my mother.
My greatgrandfather was in the 154th Senior Tennessee Infantry; he fought at Perryville, KY, Kennesaw Mountain and the battle of Nashville.
James F. Miller 1838-1916
He was wounded twice and captured twice.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:09 am to RFK
quote:
A Country We Defeated
What's this "we" stuff?
The people of the South honored their heroes.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:11 am to navy
He is in Virginia that isn't even the south anyway.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:11 am to RFK
Robert E. Lee and E.B.T. Bouregard are commemorated as much, if not more, for their work after the war as for their service in the war. Robert E. Lee faught for full equality for all after the Civil War. He advocated for the education of African Americans, donated his plantation to create Arlington National Cemetery, and founded many schools for blacks. Lee was instrumental in preventing a Vietnam-style war from breaking out after his defeat. He, more so than any other, brought unity to the south and north after the war was over, all of this from the most celebrated and studied military mind who didn't win his war. If you go to West Point or any real military academy the world over, they are studying Robert E. Lee's tactics, not U.S. Grant's.
Bouregard was another advocate for education for all African Americans.
However, the real reason most oppose the taking down of the monuments is that it's white-washing history. We shouldn't be hiding controversy away. It should be front and center, so that we must confront it, learn it, and come away with a better understanding of who we are and what we must do to avoid the mistakes of the past. Few people know the absolutely fascinating and embarrassing history of the Liberty Place monument. That's a shame. People need to know why that monument existed, not just that a bunch of racists paid to put it up, but that there was a time when relations were so tense that the losing side in an election formed a militia and tried to overthrow the government. The monument commemorated the dead who perished in the fighting, when street cars were used as cover for snipers, and manhole covers used as shields from gunfire.
When we remove the controversy, we remove a part of ourselves. We remove the opportunity to grow and learn. And what's the next part of our history to be removed due to its controversial nature? This doctrine is an alziemers of the self, slowly cleansing the mind of everything inconvenient, painful, and inevitably, everything that made us who we are, everything that allowed us to realize the mistakes of our forefathers and learn from them. We learn nothing in victory. We learn nothing from our past if we remove the controversy, because controversy IS the past. Controversy is the crucible which forged us. To tear it down and hide it away is to deny what bore us, to remove a part of ourselves, and to stunt our growth, retard our learning, and condemn ourselves to reliving the follies of our forefathers.
Bouregard was another advocate for education for all African Americans.
However, the real reason most oppose the taking down of the monuments is that it's white-washing history. We shouldn't be hiding controversy away. It should be front and center, so that we must confront it, learn it, and come away with a better understanding of who we are and what we must do to avoid the mistakes of the past. Few people know the absolutely fascinating and embarrassing history of the Liberty Place monument. That's a shame. People need to know why that monument existed, not just that a bunch of racists paid to put it up, but that there was a time when relations were so tense that the losing side in an election formed a militia and tried to overthrow the government. The monument commemorated the dead who perished in the fighting, when street cars were used as cover for snipers, and manhole covers used as shields from gunfire.
When we remove the controversy, we remove a part of ourselves. We remove the opportunity to grow and learn. And what's the next part of our history to be removed due to its controversial nature? This doctrine is an alziemers of the self, slowly cleansing the mind of everything inconvenient, painful, and inevitably, everything that made us who we are, everything that allowed us to realize the mistakes of our forefathers and learn from them. We learn nothing in victory. We learn nothing from our past if we remove the controversy, because controversy IS the past. Controversy is the crucible which forged us. To tear it down and hide it away is to deny what bore us, to remove a part of ourselves, and to stunt our growth, retard our learning, and condemn ourselves to reliving the follies of our forefathers.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:11 am to Salmon
quote:
ehhhhhh
considering his name has been removed from other things (like schools), I'm willing to bet some have and/or calling for its removal
They're quiet as church mice if they are.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:12 am to RFK
quote:
Some valid points but it still doesn't explain why we hold CSA leaders in high regard by erecting statutes to them and naming places after them.
Because some were great leaders. That they were great leaders on the wrong side doesn't make them evil.
quote:
We should never forget history. The Civil War should be taught to all Americans so it doesn't happen again.
Absolutely, though I wonder if teaching it will prevent it from happening in the future.
quote:
Taking statues down is not erasing history, not even in the slightest. If a statue comes down, it doesn't mean we are re-writing history.
In a way, it is rewriting history. To say a good man was evil, or shouldn't be remembered, because he was the losing side IS rewriting history. You may not be deleting the bigger aspects of the war (there was one, who won/lost, etc), but to disregard the figures as well is revisionist.
Churchill was a great wartime leader, and a terrible peacetime one. He should be remembered as both.
Stalin was a terrible human being who helped the Allies defeat Nazi Germany. You don't remember him as a heroic leader, and you shouldn't. His wartime attributes are not the only thing that is part of his time as leader of the Soviet Union.
These men are the sum total of their actions, not just being part of a 4 year stretch in American history.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:13 am to Haughton99
quote:
This has always been my argument. If you go to Germany do you see monuments to great Nazi leaders everywhere? The Confederacy is a shameful part of our nation's history
That's a very shallow "argument", the holding of which makes one feel morally superior without requiring any effort or self-denial.
Perfect for our modern era, in other words.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:18 am to RFK
Two things:
1) Lincoln stance during Reconstruction wherein he decided NOT to label the CSA leaders traitors and eventually tried and hung was a mistake; he did this in the name of healing the country. If you label them traitors than the monuments are not erected, schools and streets not named after them
2). Anyone that looks at the time frame that these statues were erected by state legislators can clearly see that it was a way of thumbing the nose at the federal govt's progressive movement toward equality for blacks.
The legislatures were controlled by white men who got them erected under the guise of tradition and honor. Interesting argument but ultimately bullshite.
Sucks, as I am no yankee apologist, but the truth hurts.
1) Lincoln stance during Reconstruction wherein he decided NOT to label the CSA leaders traitors and eventually tried and hung was a mistake; he did this in the name of healing the country. If you label them traitors than the monuments are not erected, schools and streets not named after them
2). Anyone that looks at the time frame that these statues were erected by state legislators can clearly see that it was a way of thumbing the nose at the federal govt's progressive movement toward equality for blacks.
The legislatures were controlled by white men who got them erected under the guise of tradition and honor. Interesting argument but ultimately bullshite.
Sucks, as I am no yankee apologist, but the truth hurts.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:20 am to Covingtontiger77
Liberty Place was erected with private donations by the families of the slain
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:31 am to RFK
Aren't the statutes simply an overt way of retaining some form of pride in the confederacy (whether you agree with that or not) akin to peaceful protest. I always took it from the mindset that, "yeah, we lost, but that doesn't stop us from acknowledging the history" so to speak.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:38 am to RFK
I wonder if there's any monuments in, say, Virginia or Mass. to British leaders prior to the revolution. (I don't know, I am asking).
Either way, I wouldn't be surprised (or care) if there were. It's part of our history. Without England, we wouldn't exist as a country.
Either way, I wouldn't be surprised (or care) if there were. It's part of our history. Without England, we wouldn't exist as a country.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:40 am to RFK
Why do you celebrate an institution founded by a slaveholder who raped his property?
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:56 am to RFK
Some people like to celebrate losers who got their asses kicked after they committed treason in defense of slavery.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:57 am to NorthGwinnett LSU
quote:
He is in Virginia that isn't even the south anyway.
Whatchu talking about? Virginia WAS the south before NC, GA, TN, KY, AL, MS even opened up settlement. Virginia is the grandfather of the south.
Part of the reason we learn about Plymouth Rock and the Mayflower but DON'T learn about Jamestowne, VA (which was first) is because of the bias against the south. I remember in school we always heard about the Pilgrims up in the north but never about Jamestown, even though Jamestown was the first permanent settlement by the British in the New World (founded in 1607).
Remember, the early American colonies were settled right in the middle of the English Civil War (1642–1651). The war back in England ended up with the King (Charles I) being beheaded and Cromwell taking over the country (Cromwell was the 17th century version of ANTIFA). As a result of the king being deposed, a lot of people left England -- partly because they hated Cromwell and partly because they wanted to keep their own heads. Many Pilgrims were on Cromwell's side and most all Cavaliers were on the King's side (Royalists). The Cavaliers settled the South (Virginia) and the Pilgrims ended up in New England.
This is what really started the divide between north and south in the U.S. I highly recommend reading "Albion's Seed" by David Fischer -- he goes into this with scholarly detail.
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