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Started By
Message
re: This Slate Abortion Article is Full of Interesting
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:36 am to ballscaster
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:36 am to ballscaster
quote:
I personally am pro-life.
Congratulations.
quote:
Your quote above is one of willful ignorance.
What is a "fetus," then? Is it a tumor? An infection? A benign growth? A human being?
It's either a human being or it isn't. And if it is (of course it is - what else could it be?) what else can it's intentional destruction be classified? Lawful execution? Manslaughter? Murder? Elective abortions are not accidental, so that excludes those classifications.
1
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:36 am to Knight of Old
quote:Quite the opposite. Our contraception technology is exactly what renders abortion an obsolete cruel medieval practice. It is absolutely un-real that it exists and is accepted in the most advanced society in the world with so much contraceptive availability. I could hold my nose and understand its application in the third world. In America? Despicable.
The ultimate angle of the pro-life zealots is to outlaw contraception, IMO.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:39 am to Ace Midnight
quote:Read things. Learn. Try to understand. I will not be your teacher. My only purpose in this thread is to pass judgment on you for being ignorant regarding this. Know that you are judged, and have a great day.
What is a "fetus," then? Is it a tumor? An infection? A benign growth? A human being? It's either a human being or it isn't. And if it is (of course it is - what else could it be?) what else can it's intentional destruction be classified? Lawful execution? Manslaughter? Murder? Elective abortions are not accidental, so that excludes those classifications.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:41 am to Knight of Old
quote:
A real issue that the pro-choice zealots miss-fire on is contraception. The ultimate angle of the pro-life zealots is to outlaw contraception, IMO.
i agree this is a concern, and i'm 100% pro-contraception (and MAP)
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:41 am to genro
quote:
It is absolutely un-real that it exists and is accepted in the most advanced society in the world with so much contraceptive availability
I tend to agree, but the irony is many of the most ardent opponents to abortion also work to reduce access to birth control. The statistics show that the abortion rate has decreased over the years as access to birth control has increased. I think that's a better way to prevent abortions than outlawing them is, and I'm against abortion.
quote:
I could hold my nose and understand its application in the third world. In America? Despicable.
That's also kind of how I feel about the death penalty.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:44 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
But, does that make you and me bigger monsters than the mother - I mean we're standing aside and doing nothing, right?
naw. going down that rabbit hole is how psychos blow up abortion clinics
if there is some sort of God/judgment, these people will be judged. if there isn't, we're only left with societal analysis and impact on society
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:44 am to ballscaster
quote:
I will not be your teacher.
So you do not have an answer to my question?
Good day to you too, sir.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:44 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The reason we’re not, according to Pollitt, is that we have all essentially been brainwashed by a small minority of pro-life activists. Only 7 to 20 percent of Americans tell pollsters they want to totally ban abortion, but that loud minority has beaten the rest of us into submission with their fetus posters and their absolutism and their infiltration of American politics. They have landed us in the era of the “awfulization” of abortion, Pollitt writes, where even pro-choicers are “falling all over themselves” to use words like “thorny,” “vexed,” “complex,” and “difficult” instead of doing what they should be doing, which is saying out loud that abortion is a positive social good.
My guess it that she is getting tied up in women's rights, reproductive health, and health in general. I know it is heavily debated but I know there is a lot of evidence showing that abortion causes a lot of pain and suffering in people's lives, is not a simple procedure like getting a wart removed or something. Liberals want to simplify abortion to make it sound like it's not big deal, like you just go the hospital get a very simple easy procedure and it is all done.
quote:
The fog of regret has meant no one is able to confidently defend or even cleanly describe what’s actually going on: Three in 10 American women have abortions by the time they hit menopause. They are not generally victims of rape or incest, or in any pitiable situation from which they need to be rescued. They are making a reasonable and even admirable decision that they can’t raise a child at the moment. Is that so hard to say? As Pollitt puts it, “This is not the right time for me” should be reason enough. And saying that aloud would help push back against the lingering notion that it’s unnatural for a woman to choose herself over others.
same kinda thing, abortion is no big deal everyone does it.
quote:
Pollitt spends significant energy dissecting the pro-life side’s contradictions. This largely involves explaining how the concept of personhood, when applied to a fetus, makes very little sense.
contradictions?
How is there a contradiction in this
Man is a human being, Women is a human being, when they have intercourse and the sperm meets an egg and new organism is created.
This organism comes from two human parents, and has Human DNA. It is living, growing, and will eventually grow things that all humans have, fingers, brain, fingernails, heart, etc.
So it makes sense that a fetus is a human being from the moment the sperm meets the egg. There is no other point that there is such a radical change from that point on in its life.
From that point on it is
Unique
Living
Human.
Good luck disproving this scientifically because it is impossible to say that a fertilized egg is not a human fertilized egg, that there it isn't unique and isn't living. I don't know about you but that seems like a good qualifier of human life. I would love to hear what else is necessary.
quote:
She cites one poll for example showing that 38 percent of people say abortion is as “bad as killing a person already born.” But in the same poll 84 percent say it’s fine to save the life of a mother.
This is such a bad argument. life of mother is a complex situation, if an abortion is the only way to save a life, even staunch pro life will say it's ok to kill the baby to save the mother. To say that is a contradiction is just dishonest and lazy.
quote:
No one would say it was fine to kill a toddler if the mother needed its heart. The pro-life position, she concludes, involves a reflexive moralism but doesn’t really reflect what people know to be true, which is that the fetus and the mother have a complicated relationship, unlike any other.
again this is no contradiction, you are comparing two different situations, not two similar situations.
For example
90% of people says it is wrong to kill people
90% of people say it is good to kill people if your protecting your own life.
The protection of life completely changes the situation and the morality and decision making of the situation.
quote:
When writing about conservatives and especially pastors or priests, Pollitt tends to dismiss them as patriarchal or women-hating, which is fine but only gets you so far. Her book would be more convincing, and also strategically smarter, if she actually examined what’s happening on their turf. In the past 40 years, as the pro-life position has hardened, the American family has also been undergoing a tremendous shift. The most conservative parts of the country, the same ones that are likely to pass the most restrictive abortion laws, have seen a rise in single motherhood. The big secret, write Naomi Cahn and June Carbone in their story, “Did the Pro-Life Movement Lead to More Single Moms?” is that higher abortion rates correlate with greater commitment to traditional marriage.
no idea what the point of this paragraph is trying to say.
quote:
If the pro-choice side wants to get some moral ground back, it could advocate for a more equal kind of family planning. Right now, college educated women have babies when they are ready. They wait until they have a degree and they are usually married. Poor women, meanwhile, are what Isabel Sawhill, in her new book Generation Unbound, calls “drifters,” meaning they drift into parenthood without thinking about it that much. The result, argues Sawhill, is a new generation of women who are struggling and children who are growing up in poverty. Sawhill wants the left to pick up a “new ethic of responsible parenthood.” That means urging women to wait until they are a little more settled and can sustain a stable relationship before they have children. “The old social norm was: ‘Don’t have a child outside marriage,’ ” she writes in her New York Times op-ed. The new one needs to be: “Don’t have a child until you and your partner are ready to be parents.”
cool, don't see how it helps her argument, but whatever.
One thing she failed to mention in the article is one of the core underlying issues of abortion, but it doesn't help the pro choice side so it makes sense why she wouldn't mention it.
Is the fetus a human being?
Logically it is the only thing that matters in this debate.
Think about it.
If the Fetus isn't human and you know it, have as many abortions as you want
if the fetus is human and you know it, it is murder
if the fetus isn't human and you don't know it, it is criminal negligence.
if the fetus is human and you'd on't know it, it is manslaughter.
The only acceptable thing to do is figure out if the fetus is human. You would shoot at a shaking bush if you weren't sure if it was a human in it, or you wouldn't run over a lump in the road which may be human or not. To ignore the discussion about the personhood of the fetus is dishonest.
This post was edited on 10/14/14 at 8:52 am
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:48 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
catholictigerfan
Have an upvote, sir.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:49 am to Ace Midnight
quote:You asked a lot of questions. There are many sources for you to research on the matter (reading a certain court decision in its entirety is a great start). I did my homework and encourage you to do yours so that in the future you will be less ignorant. I wish you well and encourage you to learn.
So you do not have an answer to my question?
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:49 am to genro
quote:
Quite the opposite. Our contraception technology is exactly what renders abortion an obsolete cruel medieval practice. It is absolutely un-real that it exists and is accepted in the most advanced society in the world with so much contraceptive availability. I could hold my nose and understand its application in the third world. In America? Despicable.
To be fair, the Catholic Church carries some of the blame here.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:50 am to ballscaster
quote:
I did my homework and encourage you to do yours so that in the future you will be less ignorant.
So you're a vote for "not a human being"?
quote:
reading a certain court decision in its entirety is a great start
That decision is utter nonsense. The dissent by Byron "Whizzer" White (a notorious liberal BTW), makes far more sense.
This post was edited on 10/14/14 at 8:53 am
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:52 am to Ace Midnight
quote:It isn't up for a vote. I will not participate in such an ignorant little game.
So you're a vote for "not a human being"?
Read. Learn. Grow.
This post was edited on 10/14/14 at 8:54 am
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:54 am to ballscaster
quote:
It isn't up for a vote.
You're assuming away the problem. Either it's a human being or it isn't. If it isn't, as catholic says - have all the abortions you want.
If it is, then, there is a clear moral question.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:54 am to Ace Midnight
I would agree that a fetus is not genuinely a human being up until a certain point. An abortion at 8 weeks cannot in good faith be called murder, though I find it morally disturbing.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:55 am to ballscaster
quote:
Read.
What can I read - from a biological standpoint - to suggest a fetus is not a human being?
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:56 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
To be fair, the Catholic Church carries some of the blame here.
really
and there is a lot of debate surrounding contraceptives and it's effectiveness. I can make arguments showing how a contraceptive mentality would actually lead to more abortions.
Yes I realize that 100% use of contraceptives 99% of the time will cause no abortions.
But how many people actually use contraceptives 100% of the time?
One of the major concerns I have with a contraceptive mentality is that sexual intercourse becomes pleasure only. As SFP said earlier in this thread, when you have sex know that this could possibly lead you to having a kid that you have to help raise. If you are using contraceptives you think you will never have a child, but if for some reason you end up becoming pregnant, instead of being something joyful and your happy about you think it is more like a illness that has to get rid of.
I could get into divorce and contraceptives, breast cancer, along with other things but that goes beyond the scope of this thread.
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:57 am to Knight of Old
quote:
The ultimate angle of the pro-life zealots is to outlaw contraception
Posted on 10/14/14 at 8:57 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
That decision is utter nonsense.
Such nonsense that it has stood for over 40 years.
But the personhood argument is a recent phenomenon aimed at targeting a loophole in the decision.
Long, interesting article if you find the time.
LINK
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