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Started By
Message
re: Alabama Senate votes to allow church to form police dept.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:23 pm to imjustafatkid
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:23 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
That school wanted the whole thing swept under the rug. They were denied.
quote:
The police department released whatever information they could about that drug bust incident.
Correct.
quote:
It didn't tell anyone anything more than was already known because the kid was a minor and they couldn't release much more information than the school could.
Minors were not the only ones caught up in this incident. Plenty of folks that were adults too.
quote:
That situation was a bunch of overblown nonsense fanned by the anti-church losers at al.com.
Even line cops knew what was going on (outside of the affected jurisdiction). I am not anti-church by any stretch. I believe in the separation of church and state for the sake of my church, not the other way round.
0
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:23 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:
Your opinion is stupid. This church will have duly sworn police officers who answer to the city chief of police, not the Church itself.
Then they are not forming their own "Police Department." Employing county deputies and or city police officers under contract for a particular area is not forming a separate police department. Although this could certainly end up as a big nothing burger, to call folks stupid for bringing up some obvious potential for problems, is a bit much.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:24 pm to PurpleandGold Motown
quote:
The elementary school is on the church campus. The middle and high school campus is about 5 miles away as the crow flies.
In a different county, which can add to the issues.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:25 pm to Celery
quote:
Whats wrong with hiring a couple of security guards?
They hire a shitload of security. They have a church campus and a large high school in two separate counties and host several hundred events per year requiring security. The cop will oversee all security now, and coordinate with various law enforcement agencies.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:28 pm to jackmanusc
quote:
Sounds like sharia law
Did I miss the part where they said this police dept would not be enforcing the laws of the state of Alabama and the US, instead they would be enforcing the law of God?
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:31 pm to lsufanz
Section 1. (a) The Board of Trustees of Briarwood Presbyterian Church, organized as a nonprofit church under Alabama's nonprofit corporation law, may appoint and employ one or more persons to act as police officers to protect the safety and integrity of the church and its ministries. Persons employed as police officers pursuant to this section shall be charged with all of the duties and invested with all of the powers of law enforcement officers in this state.
This is defacto the church acting in a capacity reserved to the state. Some possible Establishment Clause issues there [understatement of the year].
This is defacto the church acting in a capacity reserved to the state. Some possible Establishment Clause issues there [understatement of the year].
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:36 pm to Five0
quote:
This is defacto the church acting in a capacity reserved to the state
Actually it's not. There is no mention of police in the COTUS. None. In fact a state could theoretically do away with police entirely and say "private function now
and it would not be a violation of the COTUS. Now , it may be a violation of the particular state's constitutions, but the COTUS does not deal with intra state police issues at all.
If this were a non church entity doing this, you wouldn't say anything. In fact I imagine if this was a Muslim mosque doing this, you would cheer for it.
This is obvious church hatred from you and others.
Reasonable folks understand that as long as the police force is held to the same standards as other police forces (and it will be) there isn't a problem here.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:36 pm to Five0
Then let them have courts with jurisdiction in the Church and a church jail. If someone talks during church send them to jail. Or what if some teenage boy gets turned on by the sight of a teenage girl in church and runs to the bathroom and commits the sin of Onan on church grounds. Will he be executed since the church has their own police and courts.
This post was edited on 4/12/17 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:37 pm to Five0
For one, I'm glad I got out of there in 99 before every school had to have safety officers and now a private police force. When I was there, we didn't even have drug searches like public schools.
Briarwood has no more problems than any public school, and far fewer than most. My sister works there. My nephew and niece attend school there, and have since kindergarten.
I disagree with the school on many things and always have. They are quick to expel, and students are encouraged to "report" their peers. Often, suspicion is enough to have a kid shown the door, and the politics of that school are something to behold.
That said, it's a great school, and I received a wonderful education.
To me, it looks like they want a police force similar to many universities. If they want to foot the bill, more power to them. I have no issue with it. But I feel for the kids that will be under even more scrutiny than they already were.
Briarwood has no more problems than any public school, and far fewer than most. My sister works there. My nephew and niece attend school there, and have since kindergarten.
I disagree with the school on many things and always have. They are quick to expel, and students are encouraged to "report" their peers. Often, suspicion is enough to have a kid shown the door, and the politics of that school are something to behold.
That said, it's a great school, and I received a wonderful education.
To me, it looks like they want a police force similar to many universities. If they want to foot the bill, more power to them. I have no issue with it. But I feel for the kids that will be under even more scrutiny than they already were.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 2:46 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
Where to begin?
The Establishment Clause Test
LINK
As Black continued in expressing the majority opinion, he enumerated the meaning of the “establishment of religion clause”:
Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church.
Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions nor prefer one religion over another.
Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.
No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance.
No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion.
Neither a state nor the federal government can openly or secretly participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.
The bolded parts are real issues regarding the Establishment Clause in this scenario. Any citation issued by this "agency" would directly fund the state court system btw.
From the get go, my position is that NO religious institution should be allowed to do this. Strawman 1 burned.
Evidence of this? Strawman 2 burned.
Reasonable folks understand that as long as the police force is held to the same standards as other police forces (and it will be) there isn't a problem here.
You certainly strike me as reasonable, scarecrow. Not all agencies are the same, and this one is different than any in the history of the Republic. That is the first clue that there is a problem here.
The Establishment Clause Test
LINK
As Black continued in expressing the majority opinion, he enumerated the meaning of the “establishment of religion clause”:
Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church.
Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions nor prefer one religion over another.
Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.
No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance.
No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion.
Neither a state nor the federal government can openly or secretly participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.
The bolded parts are real issues regarding the Establishment Clause in this scenario. Any citation issued by this "agency" would directly fund the state court system btw.
quote:
In fact I imagine if this was a Muslim mosque doing this, you would cheer for it.
From the get go, my position is that NO religious institution should be allowed to do this. Strawman 1 burned.
quote:
This is obvious church hatred from you and others.
Evidence of this? Strawman 2 burned.
Reasonable folks understand that as long as the police force is held to the same standards as other police forces (and it will be) there isn't a problem here.
You certainly strike me as reasonable, scarecrow. Not all agencies are the same, and this one is different than any in the history of the Republic. That is the first clue that there is a problem here.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:10 pm to Five0
quote:
Private Policing Isn't a Fantasy
Many people recoil from the idea of policing being done by private, for-profit enterprise. They imagine that such companies, in their attempt to maximize profit, would be even more abusive than government police. But what most fail to realize is that private ‘police’ already exist in America and to a large extent: there are an estimated 3 persons employed in private security for every public cop. These include a wide range of roles and skills, from the night watchman at a construction site to sophisticated cyber security experts ensuring that financial transactions are secure.
Mises.org
This post was edited on 4/12/17 at 3:11 pm
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:12 pm to Mr.Perfect
So when Alabama mosques start doing this, no one will mind I am sure.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:15 pm to RollTide4Ever
Just a few questions I have.
Which court system do I go to if good ole Briarwood PD writes me a ticket?
Which jail am I going to if good ole Briarwood PD decides to arrest me?
Which court system do I go to if good ole Briarwood PD writes me a ticket?
Which jail am I going to if good ole Briarwood PD decides to arrest me?
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:25 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
This most likely violates the Establishment Clause.
Was the law passed by Congress?
If not, then no it does not violate the establishment clause.
In case you missed it here is the establishment clause.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
This post was edited on 4/12/17 at 3:26 pm
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:25 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
This most likely violates the Establishment Clause. And it is a bad idea in general.
do you think notre dame has campus police?
that's all this is.
and that's how this "police" department will be classified.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:38 pm to Loserman
quote:
Was the law passed by Congress?
If not, then no it does not violate the establishment clause.
In case you missed it here is the establishment clause.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Okay.
Because that's exactly how the First Amendment has worked for the past 200 years.
I guess I could take the time to explain state incorporation under the 14th Amendment but I feel like it would all be for nothing.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 3:48 pm to 9th life
quote:
s that the same Briarwood?
I thought the school was in a different location.
Yes, and the high school is at a different location than the church and elementary school is. The way I understand the bill it allows them to create a police force that monitors both campuses.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 4:13 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
You are correct that many morons in the area thought poorly of the school for not releasing information they are not legally allowed to release to the general public at large. They informed anyone with children at the school of the issue when it went down, and that is all they are obligated to do.
Sure, I don't fault them for not releasing any info to the public. I certainly don't blame them, and understand why they wouldn't, both from a legal sense and a PR sense.
But I can tell you that a friend of mine sent his kids to Briarwood, and according to him parents were not fully informed. Or at least not informed to his satisfaction. He pulled them out and they attend a different school now. Also according to him, it was a parent that leaked it to the press because they weren't getting answers from the school.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 4:19 pm to jackmanusc
Exactly.
Bad bad idea. Opens the door for other religious sects to do the same thing..... then take it to the extreme.
Man people are short-sighted and stupid.
Bad bad idea. Opens the door for other religious sects to do the same thing..... then take it to the extreme.
Man people are short-sighted and stupid.
Posted on 4/12/17 at 4:49 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Was the law passed by Congress?
If not, then no it does not violate the establishment clause.
In case you missed it here is the establishment clause.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
quote:
Because that's exactly how the First Amendment has worked for the past 200 years.
I guess I could take the time to explain state incorporation under the 14th Amendment but I feel like it would all be for nothing.
I understand perfectly well how the living constitutionalists have mis-interpreted the 14th amendment.
An amendment that was only intended to protect and insure the rights of Former Slaves and their children.
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