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re: Surprise Surprise - FBI wants Apple to unlock additional phones
Posted on 3/1/16 at 9:07 am to slackster
Posted on 3/1/16 at 9:07 am to slackster
quote:
If they have a warrant, what is the problem again?
cause those are so hard to get and always used with the best intentions in mind, right?
quote:
As I've said many times in this thread, either Apple can or cannot get into the phone. If they can, then they should. If they cannot, then they should come out and praise their impressive encryption and security.
By design, Apple cannot get into the phone. There, happy?
quote:
My belief is that they can, but they've been touting the fact that "even Apple themselves cannot get into their phones" so long that they don't want to end up with egg on their face when it is determined that a backdoor to bypass the passcode security actually exists, or can exist.
No software company in their right mind is going to write a flaw into their code where one doesn't currently exist. Especially one with potential implications such as this.
This post was edited on 3/1/16 at 9:08 am
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Posted on 3/1/16 at 9:12 am to SomethingLikeA
quote:
Who cares? Government wants to view the phones of criminals and terrorists. Phones they have possession of already. Go for it IMO.
Yep, I'm no fan of the govt. Especially the one we currently have, however people outraged about this are just people who want to complain about everything the government does. There is zero reason they should be denied access to terrorist information.
Posted on 3/1/16 at 9:14 am to RandySavage
Has Apple decided to stop helping ISIS yet?
Posted on 3/1/16 at 9:20 am to RandySavage
quote:
There is zero reason they should be denied access to terrorist information.
No one is telling the FBI that the FBI can't access the data. Besides, do you really think the NSA or CIA have trouble getting into these phones?
Posted on 3/1/16 at 9:23 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
Besides, do you really think the NSA or CIA have trouble getting into these phones?
they face the same challenges.
Posted on 3/1/16 at 9:24 am to gmrkr5
quote:
they face the same challenges.
But do they have the same tools as the FBI?
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:03 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
No one is telling the FBI that the FBI can't access the data. Besides, do you really think the NSA or CIA have trouble getting into these phones?
I wouldn't think so but if they can do it easily why don't they?
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:05 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
However, the ability to access certain phones requires that ALL phones be compromised.
I'm not arguing, I'm just not up to date on technology, but why does accessing the phones of certain individuals compromise "ALL" individuals?
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:17 am to RandySavage
quote:
I'm not arguing, I'm just not up to date on technology, but why does accessing the phones of certain individuals compromise "ALL" individuals?
Okay. You understand the difference between single factor and multi-factor security, right? Single factor would just be a password, pin, etc. Multifactor would be a biometric scan, plus a pin/password or, perhaps, you have to have physical access to the device.
Well - anything can be broken into if one has enough time. The feds have this phone. How does Apple, specifically, protect it's encryption scheme?
Well - it does this in 3 ways:
1. There is a built-in delay in entering the password. This delay increases with each failed attempt, greatly slowing the speed of a brute force attack (brute force meaning entering all possible combinations of characters - one string at a time - typically with a software script or application written specifically for this purposes).
2. There is a setting that can be activated to wipe the phone after 10 failed attempts.
3. There is a built-in delay based on the chipset.
Nothing can be done about 3. What the FBI wants Apple to do is to create a firmware update that:
1. Can be forced onto the phone without unlocking it, and
2. Disables features 1 and 2 from above (nothing can be done about 3.)
Once such a firmware update exists - and the FBI either thinks that Apple is the only company with the knowledge and ability to make such an update - or that to do so themselves (in all likelihood, the NSA would be asked to do it for them in the SB case) would be prohibitively expensive, even if possible - it can't be undone for all existing phones.
They are de facto unencrypted once the firmware exists than can be pushed to their phone without their knowledge or consent.
Does that make sense to you? One does have to think about it in a 4 and 5 dimensional way, and not like the phone is a safe that can physically be secured or that the software is somehow a shortcut around the lock of that safe. While that is somewhat of an accurate analogy, it is misleading in many ways.
And, again, as I do for all these threads. There is no privacy issue for this phone or these individuals. If the phone is the County's phone, they've consented. These individuals clearly committed this crime and if it is a phone of either of them, sufficient probably cause exists for the FBI to decrypt the data.
But, the broader issue here is that they are asking Apple to destroy encryption on every iPhone in existence. And that is why I am supporting Apple in this case. Even though I'm definitely not an Apple fan boy.
This post was edited on 3/1/16 at 10:19 am
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:25 am to soccerfüt
”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.”
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:28 am to RandySavage
quote:
wouldn't think so but if they can do it easily why don't they?
Because they can make the NSA's job way easier by making the manufacturer do it for them. Why break into one phone when you can get all of them at once? Also, it's not a good idea to let other people know what you can and can't do. Remember how upset the govt was when Snowden revealed everything?
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:30 am to RandySavage
quote:
I'm not arguing, I'm just not up to date on technology, but why does accessing the phones of certain individuals compromise "ALL" individuals?
Why do you even have an opinion? You are clearly entirely ignorant of this topic. Good grief. Do not take a side on something you know zero about.
Life Hack.
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:31 am to LSUAngelHere
quote:
”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.”
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:39 am to lsu13lsu
quote:
”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.”
Does anyone ever bother to look up what they are repeating to see if the quote is correct?
quote:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Posted on 3/1/16 at 10:57 am to lsu13lsu
quote:
Why do you even have an opinion?
Everyone forms opinions on everything based on the information they have.
quote:
You are clearly entirely ignorant of this topic
Which is why I asked the question in order to become informed.
Even still, if I'm reading it right, it sounds like a govt. boogeyman issue which is not something I worry about.
Posted on 3/1/16 at 11:18 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
But do they have the same tools as the FBI?
you honestly think we'd be having this discussion if the NSA already had this capability?
Posted on 3/1/16 at 11:24 am to gmrkr5
quote:
you honestly think we'd be having this discussion if the NSA already had this capability?
Snowden was the last one to publicly disclose what the NSA could do. That didn't work out very well for him. Do you think the NSA would advertise this as a capability if it could?
Ultimately, I would agree that we don't know what they can do. I do think though that they have good reasons for keeping quiet about it even if they could do it.
Posted on 3/1/16 at 11:25 am to gmrkr5
quote:
you honestly think we'd be having this discussion if the NSA already had this capability?
Maybe. I think that NSA could brute force crack the phone. No question about that. They're worried about the wipe feature, though. That's one they're not sure they can get around without Apple's help.
All of this is about the wipe. They can do everything else. That's why they're fine with Apple cracking the phone - they know nothing is on it - they may even allege that Apple tripped the wipe. They'll insist this feature be removed in future versions.
That's ultimately what they're scared of. Anyone with basic technical expertise can brute force crack a pin-locked cell phone - particularly with the tools available to the U.S. government.
Posted on 3/1/16 at 11:35 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Maybe. I think that NSA could brute force crack the phone. No question about that. They're worried about the wipe feature, though. That's one they're not sure they can get around without Apple's help.
All of this is about the wipe. They can do everything else. That's why they're fine with Apple cracking the phone - they know nothing is on it - they may even allege that Apple tripped the wipe. They'll insist this feature be removed in future versions.
That's ultimately what they're scared of. Anyone with basic technical expertise can brute force crack a pin-locked cell phone - particularly with the tools available to the U.S. government.
I could brute force the phone with open source tools, if its 4 digit. The ability to do that isnt the question here. I'll contradict myself and say its not even about the wipe function. It's about setting the precedent. Like you said, they know nothing is on this phone.
Lets keep in mind, the brute force is only simple if its a 4 digit pin. If its alphanumeric it could theoretically take them as long as 5 years to brute force that phone
So all that being said, maybe the NSA can get around the wipe function to brute force a phone and maybe the FBI is already aware of this. But, I'm fully convinced they are operating under the idea of "never let a good crisis go to waste".
It's all about the precedent. Hell BRPD goons are chomping at the bit to see what happens with this case, it was on the front page of the paper today.
If it was just about this one phone in this one case why was it on the front page of our paper in regards to BRPD?
This post was edited on 3/1/16 at 11:36 am
Posted on 3/1/16 at 11:41 am to gmrkr5
quote:
I'll contradict myself and say its not even about the wipe function.
I still think that bothers them, but -
quote:
It's about setting the precedent.
I don't necessarily disagree with that. The "technical issue" they're worried about is the wipe, not the 128/256 bit encryption, per se. But, the precedent is important as well.
Once Apple says yes, they can never go back and say no again. What would be the basis for saying no, right? "Just the tip."
This post was edited on 3/1/16 at 11:54 am
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