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re: Stephen A talking about Cp3 and the Pelicans
Posted on 5/12/17 at 9:01 am to TigerinATL
Posted on 5/12/17 at 9:01 am to TigerinATL
quote:Would have loved to at least attempt to build via the draft, but Demps punted on that. At this point, it may be too late to try and start doing so (absent getting a top 2-3 pick this year and even then, he will probably trade it). So, we have to hope for the best possible scenario in his fast-track roster creation scheme.
I'm not sure you can focus on the drafting as the important element in the process. The best drafted players you're talking about from these teams have FAR exceeded expectations. It is competent drafting but most importantly mixed with good player development and team building. It does seem unlikely that the current regime could replicate that success, but Danny Ferry was able to build smartly in Atlanta so hopefully he'll return as a consultant and steady the ship a bit. Also, so much is riding on Cousins and AD being happy with direction of the franchise next summer that I think you do need to cash in the 2018 pick.
1
Posted on 5/12/17 at 9:50 am to NOSHAU
quote:
Would have loved to at least attempt to build via the draft, but Demps punted on that. At this point, it may be too late to try and start doing so (absent getting a top 2-3 pick this year and even then, he will probably trade it). So, we have to hope for the best possible scenario in his fast-track roster creation scheme.
Do you really think having MCW or Trey Burke, then McDermott, then Dekkar would have been better than Jrue and Asik? Yeah anythign would have been better than Asik, but at the time Asik looked like the kind of hustle big we needed, he just turned into fettuccine instead.
Assuming we never got Asik, and didn't trade Jrue, i would guess that we would have picked MCW or Burke. Next year we would have needed a center and would have picked Nurkic. doubt we win 45 games and make the playoffs, but we would have been decent enough, but probably still would have picked Dekkar. Even in that scenario, we aren't better.
Only scenario that would have made us better is if we would have picked McCollum and then Lavine, which we were never going to do b/c of the needs we had.
Jrue Holiday is better than any of the 2 people we would have likely taken. There is nothing wrong with trading picks for proven players. Jrue was and is a proven player. Asik turned out not to be. Cousins is a proven player. You get a guy like Fournier with the 2018 pick, he's a proven player. The draft is a crapshoot, and we don't have the type of coaching to make late round picks worth a shite, nor do we have the team to give them roles that late round picks can excel at and grow into good players.
This post was edited on 5/12/17 at 10:28 am
Posted on 5/12/17 at 10:48 am to cgrand
no apology necessary. this board has been fairly ridiculous recently
Posted on 5/12/17 at 10:51 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I'm not sure you can focus on the drafting as the important element in the process. The best drafted players you're talking about from these teams have FAR exceeded expectations. It is competent drafting but most importantly mixed with good player development and team building
it's a chicken/egg thing. there's a reason the Spurs consistently find players late in the draft and off the street. it's not because they have some super secret scouting formula- they know who they are, they know what they want to do, they know how certain skills will or won't fit, and they have the resources and institutional structure to help those players.
they don't always hit, but once you get your foundational piece(s), it is all about developing players around them. the Pels have been atrocious at doing so
Posted on 5/12/17 at 11:15 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:You are completely guessing on the players we would have drafted. We will never know. The trades had other ramifications as well (i.e. Asik's contract)and effects on free agency approaches. There is no way to know how it would have turned out. Regardless, we are where we are, for better or worse.
Do you really think having MCW or Trey Burke, then McDermott, then Dekkar would have been better than Jrue and Asik? Yeah anythign would have been better than Asik, but at the time Asik looked like the kind of hustle big we needed, he just turned into fettuccine instead. Assuming we never got Asik, and didn't trade Jrue, i would guess that we would have picked MCW or Burke. Next year we would have needed a center and would have picked Nurkic. doubt we win 45 games and make the playoffs, but we would have been decent enough, but probably still would have picked Dekkar. Even in that scenario, we aren't better. Only scenario that would have made us better is if we would have picked McCollum and then Lavine, which we were never going to do b/c of the needs we had. Jrue Holiday is better than any of the 2 people we would have likely taken. There is nothing wrong with trading picks for proven players. Jrue was and is a proven player. Asik turned out not to be. Cousins is a proven player. You get a guy like Fournier with the 2018 pick, he's a proven player. The draft is a crapshoot, and we don't have the type of coaching to make late round picks worth a shite, nor do we have the team to give them roles that late round picks can excel at and grow into good players.
Posted on 5/12/17 at 11:57 am to NOSHAU
Seeing the draft or trade argument solely through the lens of raw talent is short sighted.
The trade off is more then just that.
It is also the money saved that can be used in FA, the lower downside because drafted players can more easily be moved when needed and are less harmful to flexibility, the control you have with their first two contracts vs only a much more narrow window when trading for players on second contracts, the ability to develop into your system from the onset of their careers.
The trade off is more then just that.
It is also the money saved that can be used in FA, the lower downside because drafted players can more easily be moved when needed and are less harmful to flexibility, the control you have with their first two contracts vs only a much more narrow window when trading for players on second contracts, the ability to develop into your system from the onset of their careers.
Posted on 5/12/17 at 12:19 pm to Ryan3232
Let's say Griffin and AD are a wash in terms of talent (not saying I agree but they are probably in the ball park)
Jordan and Boogie is definitely lopsided in favor of Boogie. You can basically just disregard Jordan on offense except on the glass.
Can we afford CP3 and still retain Jrue? Those 4 and Add a sharp shooting SF and the Pelicans will be tough to handle.
Jordan and Boogie is definitely lopsided in favor of Boogie. You can basically just disregard Jordan on offense except on the glass.
Can we afford CP3 and still retain Jrue? Those 4 and Add a sharp shooting SF and the Pelicans will be tough to handle.
This post was edited on 5/12/17 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 5/12/17 at 1:01 pm to bonhoeffer45
quote:Exactly!
Seeing the draft or trade argument solely through the lens of raw talent is short sighted. The trade off is more then just that. It is also the money saved that can be used in FA, the lower downside because drafted players can more easily be moved when needed and are less harmful to flexibility, the control you have with their first two contracts vs only a much more narrow window when trading for players on second contracts, the ability to develop into your system from the onset of their careers.
Posted on 5/12/17 at 1:30 pm to corndeaux
quote:
i love Cousins's game. i love Davis (sidebar- while arguably the best big in the league, he is most certainly not a top 3 player in the NBA. its 2017: if you cant create effectively for yourself and teammates you aren't in that discussion)
Name 2 other players (besides LeGOAT) that are better than him when taking into consideration playing both defense AND offense...I'll wait...
Posted on 5/12/17 at 1:45 pm to LSUperior
quote:
Name 2 other players (besides LeGOAT) that are better than him when taking into consideration playing both defense AND offense...I'll wait...
durant
leonard
george
westbrook
butler
that's 5
re-read what corndeaux wrote
quote:
if you cant create effectively for yourself and teammates you aren't in that discussion)
Posted on 5/12/17 at 1:57 pm to LSUperior
quote:
Name 2 other players (besides LeGOAT) that are better than him when taking into consideration playing both defense AND offense...I'll wait...
KD and Kawhi easily
Russell Westbrook. Twice now he has led shitty teams to 45+ wins. AD can't seem to win more than 34 with his shitty teams.
Steph Curry's offense is so elite that it makes up for his defense, which isn't as bad as people assume
Kyrie Irving, same as Curry
Jimmy Butler
and if i was picking today, for one year, i'd take CP3 over AD. I don't care what anyone says about CP3 and his lack of success, he has always shown up in the playoffs. Same can't be said for his teammates. I have more faith in CP3 closing a team out than AD.
AD, while he's gotten to be a better scorer on offense, has never taken that step where he pulls his team to victory in the closing minutes of games. The Pels have one of the worst records in the NBA when it comes to games decided by a few points in the closing minutes. They don't have a closer, and for whatever reason, AD hasn't learned yet how to be that closer consistently. You don't have to make all the shots every night to be the closer, but you need to have a large say in how the game ends, whether you're taking the shots or you are finding open teammates.
This post was edited on 5/12/17 at 1:59 pm
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:00 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
ou are completely guessing on the players we would have drafted. We will never know. The trades had other ramifications as well (i.e. Asik's contract)and effects on free agency approaches. There is no way to know how it would have turned out. Regardless, we are where we are, for better or worse.
I agree. I made a lot of assumption there, i know.
What I do know, is that when we do have picks, we aren't to good at them.
We hit on CP3, David West and Anthony Davis, in 15 years. Everyone else did little to nothing for us.
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:01 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
AD, while he's gotten to be a better scorer on offense, has never taken that step where he pulls his team to victory in the closing minutes of games.
WTF, do you ever watch Pels games? When they win its usually BECAUSE Mr. Davis drags them to a W. Someone should link the OKC 3 over KD and shut this crap down with the quickness.
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:02 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:Have to agree with KD and Kawhi. Curry is close. Would not take Irving or Butler over AD
Stephen A talking about Cp3 and the Pelicans by TeddyPadillacquote:Name 2 other players (besides LeGOAT) that are better than him when taking into consideration playing both defense AND offense...I'll wait... KD and Kawhi easily Russell Westbrook. Twice now he has led shitty teams to 45+ wins. AD can't seem to win more than 34 with his shitty teams. Steph Curry's offense is so elite that it makes up for his defense, which isn't as bad as people assume Kyrie Irving, same as Curry Jimmy Butler and if i was picking today, for one year, i'd take CP3 over AD. I don't care what anyone says about CP3 and his lack of success, he has always shown up in the playoffs. Same can't be said for his teammates. I have more faith in CP3 closing a team out than AD. AD, while he's gotten to be a better scorer on offense, has never taken that step where he pulls his team to victory in the closing minutes of games. The Pels have one of the worst records in the NBA when it comes to games decided by a few points in the closing minutes. They don't have a closer, and for whatever reason, AD hasn't learned yet how to be that closer consistently. You don't have to make all the shots every night to be the closer, but you need to have a large say in how the game ends, whether you're taking the shots or you are finding open teammates.
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:04 pm to NOSHAU
I wouldn't trade Davis for any of those players
that wasn't the question though
that wasn't the question though
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:17 pm to cgrand
quote:The question was who was the better all around players (offense and defense). That is what I gave my opinion on based on the previous posters answer.
I wouldn't trade Davis for any of those players that wasn't the question though
This post was edited on 5/12/17 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:21 pm to NOSHAU
Can we afford CP3 and retain Jrue? I think Jrue at SG would be a nice compliment for CP3. It could keep him fresher bc Jrue could chase around the the PG on defense plus he is pretty good shooter to knock down open 3s when defenses converge on CP3, AD, or Boogie.
If Boogie is surrounded by good shooters, he would be unstoppable in the post.
If Boogie is surrounded by good shooters, he would be unstoppable in the post.
This post was edited on 5/12/17 at 2:25 pm
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:32 pm to STEVED00
The only way to afford both cp3 and holiday is if neither take the max, we also somehow land a top 3 pick and unload asik, hill, and ajinca. (I want to keep Moore because yes cheap and a solid bench guard)
Posted on 5/12/17 at 2:47 pm to STEVED00
quote:
Can we afford CP3 and retain Jrue?
No. CP3 will be able to get 35% of the cap which means a starting salary of $35.3 million.
AD/DC/Jrue/Asik stretch = $62.3 million
Add in roster holds and you're at $68 million. That leaves you with just $33 million in cap space. That's not enough to sign CP3 and even if it was you've gutted your team to 4 players and only have the $5 million room exception and minimum contracts to fill out the other 8 roster spots. I'm not sure top heavy is even an accurate description of the state of that roster.
If CP3 does want to come back you'd be much better off doing a S&T of Holiday to the Clippers to make it happen. You keep your depth, stay above the cap to keep your exceptions and can still make a move such as 1st and Diallo for a SG like Fournier.
Compare
CP3/minimum
Holiday/minimum
Room Exception/minimum
AD/minimum
DC/minimum
to
CP3/Crawford/Cook
Fournier/Moore
Hill/MLE
AD/Cunningham
Cousins/scrub
Posted on 5/12/17 at 3:01 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
CP3/Crawford/Cook
Fournier/Moore
Hill/MLE
AD/Cunningham
Cousins/scrub
frick yeah
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