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Message
re: mozgov is everything I wish asik would be
Posted on 6/12/15 at 7:33 am to Galactic Inquisitor
Posted on 6/12/15 at 7:33 am to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:
uote:
Maybe fans are just tougher on some of their own players and see the greener grass of guys they don't watch as much or have a vested interest in.
Truth
This so true. It skews opinions on message boards and over a couple of beers to the point that any objectivity is lost on some people.
0
Posted on 6/12/15 at 8:01 am to Crewz
quote:
Crewz
Whats up McNamara?!
quote:
but the Asik bashers only talk about the bad and fail to balance it out with the good. I mean, the guy shot 55% post AS break
Same ole story every time.....same point always brought up about this black hole on offense and streaky defender on defense.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here (only cuz we have so much Asik-love on the PT) and say IF the Pels retain him this year, he's going to completely fail in Gentry's system.
I can see the good in him......he's a rebounder! That's it! He may get 2 blocks a game....but the guy still gets schooled on defense and offense by more aggressive, skilled, athletic big men. Ask him to make a layup (nope)....ask him to catch a pass (nope).....ask him to execute a p/r (nope)....ask him to make a free throw(nope)......ask him to go up strong around the basket (nope, he likes to attempt reverse layups). And this is just offense.
And since we go back to the post AS break theory, I'll touch on the burning question, why was he so expendable in Chi & Hou? Why didnt those teams see the 'efficient' Asik you all so adamantly preach about? They realized he's a bench player, not a starter getting paid starter money.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 8:20 am to chatchit42
quote:
I'll touch on the burning question, why was he so expendable in Chi & Hou? Why didnt those teams see the 'efficient' Asik you all so adamantly preach about? They realized he's a bench player, not a starter getting paid starter money.
While i'm with you on the other stuff, and i don't like Asik at all, the Bulls got rid of him b/c they had Noah, and he was a restricted free agent and Houston made a stupid offer that the Bulls did not match.
He was good that one year in Houston, then they got Dwight, and then Asik didn't want to be there anymore and they had no use for him either.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 8:28 am to chatchit42
quote:
IF the Pels retain him this year,
I don't think that's an if. Letting Asik walk is a net loss for the Pelicans (if you want the details about cap space and lost exceptions just ask, but I'm sure people are tired of seeing me post about it).
quote:
he's going to completely fail in Gentry's system.
I don't know. He can play facilitator at the elbow, but I don't want to see him attempting some of the drives I saw in the Gentry Suns highlights. The question is can Gentry set things up where you only ask him to do what he's good at, or perhaps can you teach him a few new tricks. About halfway through the season he started going to the reverse layup using the rim to protect him and that made a huge difference in not getting blocked. Maybe Gentry/Erman can come up with a few new wrinkles like that. He may not have the potential to be any more than barely adequate on offense, but I don't think it's predetermined that he'll be an outright failure.
quote:
I'll touch on the burning question, why was he so expendable in Chi & Hou?
It's not a burning question, it's an easily answered question to anyone that knows anything more about Asik than his hands suck in New Orleans.
Chicago wanted to keep him but because he was a 2 year veteran Houston was able to offer a poison pill his contract and structure it in a way that he would have counted $14.5 million against the cap for Chicago and totally messed up their cap this year. They really had no choice.
Houston started Asik and then was able to get an upgrade in Dwight Howard the following season, and $8 million per is a lot to pay a back up to a star player. Why do you think Ryan Anderson has been in nearly every trade thread the last 2 years? It must be because he sucks and nobody could see him as a starter, not because we're paying $8.5 million for a guy to either backup a star player or play out of position.
This post was edited on 6/12/15 at 8:31 am
Posted on 6/12/15 at 8:58 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Why do you think Ryan Anderson has been in nearly every trade thread the last 2 years?
It could be from the injury he sustained last year and when he came back from it, he wasnt necessarily the same. I saw the old RA return during the playoffs.
quote:
It must be because he sucks and nobody could see him as a starter
Spare me the sarcasm. Ryan Anderson is a valuable trade chip who would actually net us a nice return....because he's good. We'd be lucky to get a bag of chips for Asik.
quote:
Gentry set things up where you only ask him to do what he's good at, or perhaps can you teach him a few new tricks
Don't mind Asik being on the team, but why pay this guy starter money to be an inadequate, remedial player?
quote:
About halfway through the season he started going to the reverse layup using the rim to protect him and that made a huge difference in not getting blocked
Yea, since that's the move I wanna see our 7 footer going to so he doesnt get blocked. Sure, it's a great move, but not for a guy who can't make a point blank layup. Would love to see pump fakes and baby hooks...but wait, he has no touch and can't make a free throw to save his life. Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:05 am to chatchit42
For the record, I am not "preaching" about Asik, I just want a balanced conversation. The bad is highlighted far too often with Asik with no mention of the good. Yeah, he stunk in the playoffs in that matchup, but the Pelicans don't get to the playoffs without him and if they get someone else in the first round, he would have been far more valuable.
If people were only mentioning the good, I would be the guy bringing up the bad. I am not an Asik worshiper, I just like balanced and fair conversations.
If people were only mentioning the good, I would be the guy bringing up the bad. I am not an Asik worshiper, I just like balanced and fair conversations.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:07 am to TigerinATL
quote:
why was he so expendable in Chi & Hou?
Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:17 am to Crewz
quote:
For the record, I am not "preaching" about Asik, I just want a balanced conversation. The bad is highlighted far too often with Asik with no mention of the good. Yeah, he stunk in the playoffs in that matchup, but the Pelicans don't get to the playoffs without him and if they get someone else in the first round, he would have been far more valuable.
If people were only mentioning the good, I would be the guy bringing up the bad. I am not an Asik worshiper, I just like balanced and fair conversations.
I hear you. If he stays, I actually think Gentry's system will benefit him. Cue the "he can't possibly play in a faster system" crowd. The thing is, his reputation is as a defender, rebounder and a very good outlet passer.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:24 am to Galactic Inquisitor
Ugh
Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:26 am to chatchit42
quote:
Sure, it's a great move, but not for a guy who can't make a point blank layup.
It was EXACTLY what he needed to do and proved effective, but you can't even give him credit for things that go right. Stop being irrational. I get it, people hate Asik because "How can he not do that, I can do that, my grandmother can do that?!" But what you and your grandma can't do is be a top 5 rebounder in the league or rise to the occasion and make MVP candidates like Russel Westbrook and Marc Gasol much less efficient.
We need a guy like Asik. Just looking at the splits and how he performed against specific teams during the year, he'd play a big role against half the playoff field, and you'd want to minimize his minutes against the other half. That's just how thing work these days, the top teams are flexible and can go in multiple different directions. You may end up playing a lot of small ball in the Finals, but you probably needed a traditional big to make it past one of the earlier rounds.
I think this thread is a fair criticism of Demps, because although both were seen as lesser players at the time, you do have to wonder if that 1st would have been better spent on Koufos or Mozgov. But that doesn't change the situation we find ourselves in now where we need a guy like Asik, our options to replace him are limited, and you aren't getting his replacement from the bargain bin. We already tried and failed at that.
This post was edited on 6/12/15 at 9:40 am
Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:39 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I think this thread is a fair criticism of Demps, because although both were seen as lesser players at the time, you do have to wonder if that 1st would have been better spent on Koufos or Mozgov. But that doesn't change the situation we find ourselves in now where we need a guy like Asik and you aren't getting him from the bargain bin. We already tried and failed at that.
This is the frustrating part, Demps probably could have nabbed Mozgov for the same pick that he used in the Asik trade. Netting a similar player, at a much lower salary. There is nothing that can be done about it now, so there's no use in crying about it, though.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:43 am to Crewz
quote:
but the Pelicans don't get to the playoffs without him
YOu don't know that, and i'd bet money we make the playoffs with just about any competent center in the league.
His importance to this team is easily replaceable with 25-30 other centers in this league, problem is it is not easy to get those other 25-30 guys.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 9:45 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
This is the frustrating part, Demps probably could have nabbed Mozgov for the same pick that he used in the Asik trade. Netting a similar player, at a much lower salary. There is nothing that can be done about it now, so there's no use in crying about it, though.
in hindsight yeah, but i don't know or think Mozgov was worthy of a mid first rounder at the beginning of the season. Asik appeared to be at the time.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 10:00 am to Toula
quote:
The argument (for the Anti-Asik crowd) is on the Warriors side. They just won by 20 and played Bogut 3 minutes. THREE.
Vs the Cavs, that's supposedly where a Bogut (or Asik) proves their worth. Banging with Thompson and Mozgov.
This is a good point that I didn't think about. There is a big difference between the Warriors team 1-4 and our 1-4 though.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 10:01 am to TeddyPadillac
Asik's career FG%, TO%, TRB%, WS, VORP, Defensive rating are all better than Mozgov.
Mozgov scores more points and get's a negligible amount of more blocks than Asik. That's about where the advantages end for Moz.
I like Mozgov, and I'd take Mozgov at half the price of Asik, but Moz will probably get 10+/year after these playoff performances. He's worse on defense and rebounding and slightly better as a scorer.
If Mozgov is everything you want Asik to be then you're in luck. You've got basically exactly what you want. With a little bit better rebounding and defense.
Mozgov scores more points and get's a negligible amount of more blocks than Asik. That's about where the advantages end for Moz.
I like Mozgov, and I'd take Mozgov at half the price of Asik, but Moz will probably get 10+/year after these playoff performances. He's worse on defense and rebounding and slightly better as a scorer.
If Mozgov is everything you want Asik to be then you're in luck. You've got basically exactly what you want. With a little bit better rebounding and defense.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 10:06 am to TeddyPadillac
My belief is that whoever we would have had here, we would have been pining for the other guy. If we would have got Koufos or Mozgov, we would have been frustrated with their flaws and wanted Asik or Lopez.
The centers in this tier all have flaws and all have matchups that will expose them. They are probably destined to be 25mpg type of guys in most series with the way the NBA is going, and in some series they might be rendered useless altogether, like Speights and Bogut last night. But the Warriors needed Speights and Bogut for the regular season and other series. You can't measure the beating not having them would have taken on a guy like Draymond Green if he had to play the '5' 25 minutes per game for 100+ games now.
Splitter killed the Spurs in the 2013 Finals, but they don't get past Memphis without him. If you are going to win 4 playoff series, you need those true centers and you need them to get through the regular season. Again, Asik is not the best, but give me a better (realistic) alternative given our current situation. Also, do not dismiss his 2nd half when he was obviously healthier and more familiar with his teammates, and do not dismiss his '12-13 season in a spaced out, fast offense just to perpetuate your narrative.
There is good and bad with Asik, and given our situation he is likely the best option and there is even reason to be optimistic given his past.
The centers in this tier all have flaws and all have matchups that will expose them. They are probably destined to be 25mpg type of guys in most series with the way the NBA is going, and in some series they might be rendered useless altogether, like Speights and Bogut last night. But the Warriors needed Speights and Bogut for the regular season and other series. You can't measure the beating not having them would have taken on a guy like Draymond Green if he had to play the '5' 25 minutes per game for 100+ games now.
Splitter killed the Spurs in the 2013 Finals, but they don't get past Memphis without him. If you are going to win 4 playoff series, you need those true centers and you need them to get through the regular season. Again, Asik is not the best, but give me a better (realistic) alternative given our current situation. Also, do not dismiss his 2nd half when he was obviously healthier and more familiar with his teammates, and do not dismiss his '12-13 season in a spaced out, fast offense just to perpetuate your narrative.
There is good and bad with Asik, and given our situation he is likely the best option and there is even reason to be optimistic given his past.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 10:22 am to Crewz
quote:
There is good and bad with Asik, and given our situation he is likely the best option and there is even reason to be optimistic given his past.
:kige:
Posted on 6/12/15 at 10:28 am to chatchit42
quote:
Ugh
Is this your go-to response when proven wrong?
Posted on 6/12/15 at 10:51 am to VOR
quote:I think he is a good rebounder, but an inconsistent defender. There are times that he looks great and others where he choses to back away from the action. He is not a great help defender. I think his stamina may come in to play as he gets winded very quickly.
I hear you. If he stays, I actually think Gentry's system will benefit him. Cue the "he can't possibly play in a faster system" crowd. The thing is, his reputation is as a defender, rebounder and a very good outlet passer.
Posted on 6/12/15 at 10:54 am to Crewz
quote:
Also, do not dismiss his 2nd half when he was obviously healthier and more familiar with his teammates, and do not dismiss his '12-13 season in a spaced out, fast offense just to perpetuate your narrative.
Don't dismiss his shitty parts. And i'm not dismissing when you think he was good. He shot 61% from under the rim in '13. He does that again, i'm somewhat fine with him. I'm not fine with his dumbass shooting 51% from under the rim.
I'll be happy with an Asik that shoots over 60% and when i watch him play i see him giving 100% all the time. Hopefully whatever lingering injury he may have had this year passes by and he comes in next year much better.
He's always going to be a liability on offense. he's never going to be a threat in the pick and roll, or when he has the ball. His man will always sag off and clog the lane, and Asik needs to be more involved with the offensive glass. I know his stats looks decent for OReb, but watching him play it just seems like it could be better if he just played harder and smarter more often.
I'm tired of seeing smaller guys blocking him out. I'm tired of seeing him hustle for position for a rebound only to have a gaurd jump higher than him and tip the ball away from his stone hands. I'm tired of seeing him getting blocked at the rim. I'm just tired of the lack of effort he plays with. It's the effort that pisses me off.
I'm harder on him b/c i saw how he played in Houston and that's just not the guy or the effort we have seen here. If he wants to make $10 million a year, play like you did in Houston. You play like you did in N.O. last year, you're worth $6 million to me. It's not the scheme he's in, it's the lack of effort and hustle that has made him worse than what he was in Houston.
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