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re: Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (Thoughts with Spoilers; Fricking fantastic)
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:07 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:07 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
they attempted a shift in personality that takes years, because that's what we're used to as an audience
What shift was there? All Koba saw was things that justified his beliefs, and when he saw that Caesar would never go along with his beliefs no matter what evidence was presented before him, he eliminated him and tried to become leader. I don't think Koba developed all that much, he just forced the other Apes to see the world as he sees it.
This post was edited on 7/12/14 at 9:17 pm
1
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
he literally went from being 100% "all in" with the ape collective to not trusting of humans to psychopathic authoritarian dictator, killing motherfricking apes left and right, in like 72 hours. that's a bit of a personality shift
Koba was a psychopath from the start who was only held on a leash by Ceasar. Once he killed Ceasar and was let off the chain, he went nuts with it. I don't see why Koba's development is all that unbelievable. He had no reason to go against Ceasar before the humans arrived, but once they did, he felt he had to.
This post was edited on 7/12/14 at 9:12 pm
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:15 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
so he was waiting on what was thought to be an extinct species to re-emerge in order to take control of the ape collective?
No. He admired Ceasar before the humans showed up again, but once they did, he heavily disagreed with Ceasar and thought that Ceasar not seeing the dark side of humanity would lead to their extinction. He thought the apes needed to see it from his point of view, so he decided to make Ceasar a martyr and get the apes to his point of view, and didn't tolerate anyone seeing things from Caesar's POV again. It's pretty clear.
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:16 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Koba was a psychopath from the start who was only held on a leash by Ceasar. Once he killed Ceasar and was let off the chain, he went nuts with it. I don't see why Koba's development is all that unbelievable. He had no reason to go against Ceasar before the humans arrived, but once they did, he felt he had to.
I could buy this up till the point of him getting wreckage off of a chimp just so he can steal his gun only to not only drop it back down but to walk on it after.
That wasn't just lying dormant behind the ape seen doing a flying leap off of a hill to save another ape.
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:26 pm to Volvagia
His primary motive is not his love of apes, but his hatred of humans. I don't see why that's that hard to believe that he'd do that.
This post was edited on 7/12/14 at 9:35 pm
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:45 pm to OMLandshark
So to kill another ape, he won't take the half a second of effort to walk around the injured ape, because he hates humans?
Guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one as I can't see it.
Guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one as I can't see it.
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:49 pm to Volvagia
Im confused with your logic.
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:56 pm to abellsujr
I'm confused by what exactly you are confused about?
I just can't see a psychopath changing demeanor that rapidly. He was always unhinged, but the concept of an ape family was big for him at the beginning.
Killing Caeser to frame humans fits that profile.
Killing Ash for questioning him still fits that profile.
At the end of the day, through a warped thought processes, he felt that these were nesscessary collateral damage to protect the collective. Sure, hatred for humans were clearly there, but he also reigns it in for the greater good earlier in the film.
The stepping on ape shot doesn't fit that mold. It's the act of a jaded, disconnected dictator used to years of absolute control. Not a day and a half of it.
I just can't see a psychopath changing demeanor that rapidly. He was always unhinged, but the concept of an ape family was big for him at the beginning.
Killing Caeser to frame humans fits that profile.
Killing Ash for questioning him still fits that profile.
At the end of the day, through a warped thought processes, he felt that these were nesscessary collateral damage to protect the collective. Sure, hatred for humans were clearly there, but he also reigns it in for the greater good earlier in the film.
The stepping on ape shot doesn't fit that mold. It's the act of a jaded, disconnected dictator used to years of absolute control. Not a day and a half of it.
This post was edited on 7/12/14 at 9:57 pm
Posted on 7/12/14 at 9:59 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
All Koba saw was things that justified his beliefs, and when he saw that Caesar would never go along with his beliefs no matter what evidence was presented before him, he eliminated him and tried to become leader
and then he turned into a psychotic dictator. he literally goes from worker bee subservient to complete psycho in about 72 hours
that simply doesn't happen. that kind of transition takes a long time (the absolute power corrupts absolutely meme). but, in order to create an artificial conflict to "raise the stakes" of the ending, they forced it in
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:00 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Once he killed Ceasar and was let off the chain, he went nuts with it. I don't see why Koba's development is all that unbelievable
because it is years of development occurring in like a day (when you go from "normal" to "super psycho")
quote:
He had no reason to go against Ceasar before the humans arrived, but once they did, he felt he had to.
that is one thing
becoming psycho mass murderer is another thing
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:02 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
His primary motive is not his love of apes, but his hatred of humans. I don't see why that's that hard to believe that he'd do that.
where in "hatred of humans" is it required to jail apes and throw others off a ledge?
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:04 pm to Volvagia
I agree with you, but I felt like when he saw the firepower the humans had it changed him. Towards the end of the movie he had become drunk with power. He changed throughout the movie.
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
Is it so hard to believe that Koba was drunk with power?
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:05 pm to Volvagia
quote:
Killing Caeser to frame humans fits that profile.
Killing Ash for questioning him still fits that profile.
even killing ash doesn't really fit. going heel and killing caesar in order to sacrifice himself for what he sees as good for the collective? works. after that he goes ape shite into complete insanity
quote:
disconnected dictator used to years of absolute control. Not a day and a half of it.
exactly
it's kind of like the guy played by the actor from oz. the story just used him to be an idiot-aggressive human in a similar mold. he was completely unnecessary (oh ok he would help with the dam? but they get it back online while he sits in a car?)
i mean we're not talking about gravity here (all eyecandy and nothing else), but it had some major flaws
it was a really really good summer filck
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:07 pm to abellsujr
quote:
Is it so hard to believe that Koba was drunk with power?
over like 12 hours? yes
maybe if they had established he wanted to rule from the get go? ok possibly. him being a terrible leader would fit
but the opposite was presented in the movie from the literal start
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
Of course the opposite was presented. 
Why would they give it away? Plus Koba was not presenting himself that way to Caesar. He wanted to do it behind his back.
Why would they give it away? Plus Koba was not presenting himself that way to Caesar. He wanted to do it behind his back.Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:12 pm to abellsujr
quote:
Of course the opposite was presented. Why would they give it away?
so wait
you're saying koba wanted to lead the apes in the opening scene?
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:14 pm to SlowFlowPro
I don't know. How can we know? Things are not always that simple.
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:15 pm to abellsujr
quote:
I don't know. How can we know?
i thought it was pretty clear he was happy following caesar.
Posted on 7/12/14 at 10:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
I didn't get that at all. I felt like throughout most of the movie he had other motives. Even if you dont feel that way, i dont see why its so hard to believe that he could be more complex than black or white.
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