re: The NBA's most overrated player

A healthy is absolutely better than Gasol.

quote:

---

Howard didnt lead shite Orlando teams to the playoffs by sitting at the end of games. We aren't talking about Deandre Jordan or Javale McGee here.

---

I wouldn't say those ORL teams were bad

Nelson
Lewis
Hedo
Redick

Were all solid players at that time

quote:

---

based on what?

---

Production and efficiency.

And a healthy Howard is absolutely a better defender, by a solid margin too.

I'm not making this as a literal comparison, but Patrick Ewing had a ton more offensive skill than Shaq, who was the better offensive player?

quote:

---

do you really believe Howard is a better shooter than Gasol? Howards FG attempts are at the rim. Remember,DeAndre Jordan led the league in FG%-is he the best shooter in the NBA or better than Howard and Gasol? Also, not that it's the end all stat, but Gasol PER > Howards, EWA also superior.

---

I never said Howard was a better shooter. I said he scores more points with a better FG%. I'm a firm believe in not caring how a guy scores his points, be it at the rim or from 15 feet. 2 points are 2 points.

Marc Gasol is skilled. No doubt. More so than Howard? Maybe. He's got a refined euro game that not many other centers have. His brother comes to mine. But being the only center with different skills than the rest doesn't necessarily mean he's better. Aarvydis Sabonis was a one of a kind, skilled big man. He was good but we don't ever say he was better than a guy like Shaq.

That's great that he gets back on defense or runs the offense through the high post. I'm impressed, really. Doesn't sound like much of a center to me.

Howard is a year removed from 21/15/2/2 while shooting 57%. You can have the skills and I will take the production and history of winning

quote:

---

quote:
Give me Marc Gasol, Brooke Lopez, or Noah over the last 2 years of Dwight Howard.
That is infinitely more comical than saying Howard is still the best C in the league.

---

Agreed, but RTR is a top 5 troll on this board, so take it with a grain of salt

quote:

---

Okay I am done, have more important shite to do

---

Okay now I swear I'm done.

I went over to basketball-reference and did head2head matchups for the two of them since Gasol's rookie year(2008) until now. At that point I guess Howard had 4 years on him, but here is the career match-up LINK

Now of course a some factors in play here:
-as stated, Howard had the expiernce advantage early on
-Injuries to Howard especially this year-I think he hurt his shoulder in the January game.
-Role changes, especially with Rudy Gay in and out of the line-up and the departure of Mayo(keys in the offense or at least primary ball handlers), for Howard new system this year, new players as well
-of course the biggest missing factor here is without mysynergy or other video evidence we don't know if they are going heads up every possesion. I'd assume Gasol guards Howard typically(or Gortat if ORL went big), but Howard might guard Zbo more often(especially early on and now with Pau sharing the court with him now).
-We also have very little idea on the "rim protecting" D they played in these games as far as shot altering and defending PnRs,etc.

So what I conclude from the raw data:
-Howard had more points, but on more shots a game.
-Gasol shoots a vastly superior % against Howard led teams
-The expectations on who would lead what category is accurate. Howard in rebounds & blocks, Gasol in assits & FT%. Steals are about even
-The negative numbers (TOs,PFs) are in Gasol's favor as he has less(especially TOs)
-Gasol obviously outplayed him this year
-because of the strike and injuries, before their game in November of 2012 the last time they played heads up was January of 2011
-2011 marked a time when Howard was at the top of his game, but Gasol was closing the gap between the two.
-since this is MSB, Gasol has a 5-3 advantage in the W/L column.(again, strange they've only played eight times since 2008)

quote:

---

Well for starters, less and less teams are crashing the boards nowadays, hence the utter lack of 20-10 guys this year. Coaches now stress getting back on transition D and half court position over the odds of getting a rebound. So that has nothing to do with whether he is a "real" center.

---

lol

Memphis doesn't even have Gasol back in transition as much as you are letting on. Actually he is pretty much the only center in the league that operates high in the post that I can think of.

As far as coaches stressing getting back on defense, there are 8 centers who grabbed double digit boards this season compared to 2 who did it 10 years ago in 2003. A lot of them have perimeter players break once a shot goes up, but not centers. Maybe I should ask how much basketball you have watched?

Walton and Kareem could play out of the high post as 7 footers yet they could still muster double digit boards for a career. Gasol is a 7' 270 man, he should be able to get more rebounds by just standing there, Zach Randolph or high post be damned. And I never once said he played in Europe. I said he has a Euro game. And he does.

You can hang your hat on Gasol's DMVP in a year where Howard was hurt. Howard has 3 and a handful of 1st team all defneses with more to come.

quote:

---

Great. Pop the champagne when the Pelicans acquire DeAndre Jordan. Afterall, building a team is easy if you just look at points. I'm not sure why there are scouts. Teams should just draft the highest producing college players. Like Adam Morrison.

---

Man you are reaching today. More than usual. For one, Deandre Jordan doesn't even score points. Secondly, he sucks.

If you want to make a valid argument, find me a player who scores 20+ppg at a 50%+ clip and tell how that player isn't valuable.

quote:

---

What exactly has Howard won? an Eastern Conference with a watered down Celtics squad and LeBron & his ragtag crew as the serious contenders?
Compared to the teams in the Western Conference in 2009? To quote you,

---

He has been a consistent participant in the playoffs on bad teams. Call it whatever you will. What has Gasol won? From you're angle, he's beating up on an injured Thunder team amirite?

Griffin has the best PG in the game throwing lobs and bounce passes to him 5 feet from the goal. When he catches the ball with his back to the basket he's not good.

He gets all this attention for his dunks. He's entertaining in that facet of the game, but that's all he brings.

Easily the most overrated.

quote:

---

As far as coaches stressing getting back on defense, there are 8 centers who grabbed double digit boards this season compared to 2 who did it 10 years ago in 2003

---

For a man(?) who pulls stats (usually out of your arse) as much you do, you'd think you'd have a better understanding of statistics in general. However, I realize you are still the same poster who argued the rebounding rate isn't an indicator of a good rebounder.

Now even though I said there are no 20-10 guys this year, I ll address your crap.Since we are talking raw data, there are eight players who averaged 10 rebounds, not 8 centers. 3 are pure power forwards, 2 are guys that split time or play the position due to team needs. So even with the simplest of data pulls, you make mistake.

One of those guys happens to be on Gasol's own team and plays right underneath the basket and leads the league in offensive rebounds per a game.

Only 2 players on that list had teammates that average more rebounds than Gasol.

quote:

---

Memphis doesn't even have Gasol back in transition as much as you are letting on. Actually he is pretty much the only center in the league that operates high in the post that I can think of.

---

One does not have to do with the other(I'll come back to the other), Gasol is instructed to help with transiton D more so than crashing the boards. This is evident any time you watch the Grizz play, but since you probably do not, I'll leave a snippet of Insider scouting report on Gasol

quote:

---

Widebody center who moves surprisingly well for his size. Great feel for high post.
+ Likes to play left block and attack with righty running hook. Unselfish to a fault.
+ Excellent rebounder and defender. Not a leaper, but always in right position on D.
Also notable is that Gasol basically doesn't try for offensive rebounds. Only two centers grabbed them less often. He's usually at the high post and opts to get back on defense rather than charging toward the glass.

---

quote:

---

A lot of them have perimeter players break once a shot goes up, but not centers.

---

More and more bigs are going back on D, the Celtics are a prime example(who finish last in offensive glass every year) of team whose identity is built around D. If you look at the league as a whole offensive rebounding has been declining since at least the 70s.
Today's leaders in the clubhouse are Denver @31.4 and ironically Memphis @ 31.0(who employed stellar offesinve rebounders ZBo, Ed Davis and Speights-all cracking the top 20 this year in ORR). Using a a modified search on Basketball reference can you guess, of all the individual sqauds of every franchise since 1973 to now where todays leaders in crashing the glass rank?( I'll give you a minute to sort the data)



SPOILERS!!!!

Denver at comes in at 395 and Memphis comes in 456 aka DEAD frickING LAST. So that means even a team like the 1981-82 Cleveland Cavaliers, the 97-98 Toronto Raptors and the 86-87 Los Angles Clippers with their winning percentages of .183,.195 and .146 crashed the glass more.
-Crashing the glass has become passe in the NBA and focusing on transition D has become more and more apparent in todays NBA.

quote:

---

Walton and Kareem could play out of the high post as 7 footers yet they could still muster double digit boards for a career. Gasol is a 7' 270 man, he should be able to get more rebounds by just standing there, Zach Randolph or high post be damned. And I never once said he played in Europe.

---

Here again, you either choose to ignore data, understand data or simply oblivious to the obvious differences. The era Walton and Kareem(two of my favorites) was vastly different for many reasons:

-the pace of the game has considerably slowed as coaching has evolved. Slower pace= less possesions by teams = less shots= less opportunity for rebounds. It really can't be broken down any simpler for you to comprehend. Even 90s basketball was faster (although spacing was an issue). As the game has slowed, so has rebounding as whole. The 20-10 player has slowly dropped for years after peaking in the 90s. In case you fail to see the coorelation as teams crash the glass less, scoring oppotunties especially for bigs dry up.

quote:

---

Actually he is pretty much the only center in the league that operates high in the post that I can think of.

---

That's because he's the most skilled big man in the league who is also his teams prime decision maker. Kind of like Walton, Sabonis and Kareem (Shaq could have done this to). As far as current bigs, most teams don't have the skilled big who can run the UCLA offense, but guys operate in the high post(as either screeners, or for spacing issues).

quote:

---

I said he has a Euro game. And he does.

---

not really, being a mutli dimesional center does not mean your game is European-which you know as well as I what that contation means in basketball. Euro centers are known mostly for outside shooting, not high post operation. If you think he is a Euro-style center because of his passing, again Walton, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt and Webber say hello. In another way, if Randloph retired, odds are Gasol would move to the low post more often. Gasol has range, but he has never been classified as a shooter. Gasol's shot chart this year

quote:

---

You can hang your hat on Gasol's DMVP in a year where Howard was hurt. Howard has 3 and a handful of 1st team all defneses with more to come.

---

That has nothing to do with how Gasol played defense this year, but since you think the All-Defense teams selections are so highly regarded maybe you think Mike James was deserving of his first team vote this year. As Howards athleticism continues to decline, so will his accolades.

quote:

---

For one, Deandre Jordan doesn't even score points. Secondly, he sucks.

---

Based on your earlier logic, the simple solution to that is get him the ball more where he is comfortable,right? Afterall, it doesn't matter how they score, 2 points is 2 points and Jordan led the league in FG%!

quote:

---

If you want to make a valid argument, find me a player who scores 20+ppg at a 50%+ clip and tell how that player isn't valuable.

---

I never said anything about Howard not being valuable. In fact I called him the second best in the NBA.

quote:

---

He has been a consistent participant in the playoffs on bad teams. Call it whatever you will. What has Gasol won? From you're angle, he's beating up on an injured Thunder team amirite?

---

Howard has been surround by elite shooters most of his career, especially the good teams he was on(and never had much offensive decision making to do on those teams) They never beat a equally matched team though. So he's shouldn't be labeled a "winner" as you have.Ask his teammates if he is a true winner. Secondly, I never claimed Gasol should have that title(although I'm sure his teammates would call him one). I simply said for his career, his conference is much tougher to get out of. As far as his match-up now, yeah they are beating (I wouldn't count out KD)a hobbled team, but they aren't out of the woods yet. If they were to win and somehow make past GS/SA, his team would have knocked off a impressive list, but without an upset of Miami I wouldn't classify him as a winner then either, just as guy whose team had a nice run this year.

quote:

---

This constant Deandre Jordan example is baffling and completely irrelevant, man.

---

Just using an extreme example to illustrate that sometimes just because some is good in a very small area, doesn't mean it's good. If the reasoning is "well doesn't matter how they score 2 points = 2 points" then putting that player in the same position repeatedly would be a highly effective offense and since Jordan was the FG% leader he was an easy targert.FG% was pointed to as some useful stat in regarding Howard's(which it isn't) abilities by that dumbass.

Gyno has always had very hard time understanding useful stats vs. useless ones.Mainly I use Jordan here,an inept little skilled C,who happens to be a FG% leader, just to frick with him.