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re: Is Yadier Molina a HOF Catcher?
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:50 am to JasonMason
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:50 am to JasonMason
quote:
He also has half the gold gloves of molina in the same amount of time.
Matheny has a lot of gold gloves, too. His advanced stats don't appear to justify that reputation. I don't put a whole lot of stock in gold gloves. Others are free to put as much stock as they like in it.
2
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:50 am to therick711
quote:
The WAR of the other catchers in the hall is similarly undervalued.
No it's not. A significantly higher portion of their WAR's are derived from their offense.
The flaw in catcher WAR is entirely on the defensive side.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:52 am to Speedy G
Yes it is. What you keep describing is a flaw that exists across all catchers who are rated. Sandy Alomar, for example, isn't given credit for his framing and leadership and all of the other stuff that we are told should inflate Molina's value.
This post was edited on 9/29/16 at 11:54 am
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:54 am to DallasTiger45
quote:
Yadi Molina is 2 tiers below Buster Posey as a player.
I may have been a little liberal with my use of "generation". For whatever reason I thought Molina had been doing it for more than 4 years before Posey came into the league, but I was wrong.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:55 am to therick711
quote:
Matheny has a lot of gold gloves, too. His advanced stats don't appear to justify that reputation. I don't put a whole lot of stock in gold gloves. Others are free to put as much stock as they like in it.
Matheny doesn't have nearly as many as Molina or others at the top of their positions so I don't really see how that hurts Molina more than it hurts Johnson. Even if you want to disregard gold gloves that's fine. The other stat I linked to clearly shows there are 2 maybe 3 catchers in a league of their own defensively and Charles Johnson isn't one of them.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:56 am to JasonMason
I'm not going to put any stock into a stat that you yourself won't bother to vet. You can keep posting it all you like.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 12:01 pm to therick711
Sandy Alomar isn't in the Hall, so I don't see where he fits in with Molina's WAR relative to the WAR of Hall of Fame catchers.
If a greater percentage of Molina's value comes from his defense than offense, relative to HOF catchers, then a more accurate statistical measure that increases that defensive component will increase his total statistical value more than the other Hall of Famers, thus narrowing the gap. This is basic arithmetic.
If a greater percentage of Molina's value comes from his defense than offense, relative to HOF catchers, then a more accurate statistical measure that increases that defensive component will increase his total statistical value more than the other Hall of Famers, thus narrowing the gap. This is basic arithmetic.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 12:03 pm to therick711
quote:
I'm not going to put any stock into a stat that you yourself won't bother to vet. You can keep posting it all you like.
I haven't seen any other defensive stats posted.
quote:
Catcher data looks at stolen bases allowed, caught stealing, errors, pickoffs, passed balls, and wild pitches. I split the data by pitcher handedness (otherwise a catcher will look better if he catches more lefthanders than normal.) Once again, everything is compared to league averages and converted to runs.
Total Zone Data
Seems legit.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 12:05 pm to Speedy G
quote:
If a greater percentage of Molina's value comes from his defense than offense, relative to HOF catchers, then a more accurate statistical measure that increases that defensive component will increase his total statistical value more than the other Hall of Famers, thus narrowing the gap. This is basic arithmetic.
This makes sense. The only catchers that would potentially widen the gap would be those that are seen as better defenders. WAR is already considering his offense on a level field with the others, so I don't see how defense having more impact widen the gap in general.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 12:40 pm to Tigerbait337
He's the Ozzie smith of catchers. He gets in based on defense and wining 2 World Series. It doesn't really matter where his offense stacks up.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 12:43 pm to therick711
Are they going to put his neck tats on his HOF plaque?
Posted on 9/29/16 at 12:51 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
He's the Ozzie smith of catchers. He gets in based on defense and wining 2 World Series. It doesn't really matter where his offense stacks up.
He's not on Ozzie's level as a defender. No one is or was.
Plus Ozzie's prime was better and longer. 10 seasons with over 4 fWAR.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 1:00 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
e's the Ozzie smith of catchers. He gets in based on defense and wining 2 World Series. It doesn't really matter where his offense stacks up.
Ozzie? Let's pump the brakes
This post was edited on 9/29/16 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 9/29/16 at 2:00 pm to barry
quote:
Ozzie? Let's pump the brakes
Ozzie in the sense of that he is light on hitting, but is a generational defender, game caller, pitch framer, rotation handler.
4 Pennants. 2 World Series.
guy is a HOF'er
Posted on 9/29/16 at 2:00 pm to DallasTiger45
quote:
Plus Ozzie's prime was better and longer. 10 seasons with over 4 fWAR.
understandably, playing a less taxing position.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 2:16 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
4 Pennants. 2 World Series.
I know MLB guys don't get penalized for lack of post-season success but can we move beyond rewarding guys for it also?
Posted on 9/29/16 at 2:20 pm to barry
i dont write the rules, Bare'.
He was the quarterback of some damn strong teams. That is hard to ignore. The rest of the team has always given him props for his greatness & importance.
He was the quarterback of some damn strong teams. That is hard to ignore. The rest of the team has always given him props for his greatness & importance.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 2:46 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
understandably, playing a less taxing position.
I don't think it makes up for the vast difference in peaks. HOF players should have an elite peak or a sustained period of very good to excellent performance.
Molina has neither, no matter how much people wax poetic about him "quarterbacking" championship teams or whatever other subjective narratives you want you use to prop up his inferior stats. Maybe that will get him in, but he wouldn't have my vote.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 3:01 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
i dont write the rules, Bare'.
He was the quarterback of some damn strong teams. That is hard to ignore. The rest of the team has always given him props for his greatness & importance.
Can't you apply the same logic to Russell Martin? Martin is on the verge of making the playoffs eight out of the last nine years with four different teams. Martin went to a team in the Pittsburgh Pirates that hadn't even had a winning season in 20 years and helped them make two consecutive playoff appearances. Than he went to a Blue Jays team who had the longest active postseason drought in North American professional sports and helped them win a division title last year and is on the verge of making the playoffs again this year.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 3:02 pm to DallasTiger45
quote:
HOF players should have an elite peak or a sustained period of very good to excellent performance.
so what you're telling me is you don't think Molina has been an elite defensive catcher the last 10 years? And perhaps one of the 5 best ever? And in between was good enough to finish top 5 in MVP voting 2x.
The responsibility of handling a pitching staff, among other things a catcher does, cannot be quantified, exactly. But just about anyone who has played baseball at a high level will tell you how important that is.
I love stats like WAR, dont get me wrong. But dont get caught up in being a WAR monger, mate.
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