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re: Is Yadier Molina a HOF Catcher?
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:09 am to Speedy G
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:09 am to Speedy G
quote:
Joe Mauer started a grand total of 885 games at catcher and hasn't caught a game in over 3 years.
That's irrelevant because Mauer accumulated more WAR in the time he was catching than Yadi will during his entire career.
2
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:13 am to barry
quote:
Thats great but regardless of defensive skills, hitting is still and giant portion of a players value and Molina is not even league average for his career.
Not disagreeing that hitting plays a huge part. I'm just simply saying that he's probably top 5 defensively at catcher all time and the other guys mentioned aren't in that conversation. Just curious what metrics you are using to cite league average? Because his BA for his career is above league average and I'm sure the others are hovering around or above.
So to me he's got a giant plus as top end of the elite defenders at his position, but his hitting is average to slightly above average. So it depends what the writers consider more important at his position. I don't think they judge all positions the same. I don't think he's a lock, but he also probably has a few years left.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:14 am to purplengold1
No Cardinal hate, but people are putting him on the pedestal. His numbers are not as great as others who are not in the hall
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:15 am to JasonMason
quote:
I think Molina's argument is defensively he's one of the best catchers of all time.
Agree.
quote:
His offense isn't elite, but it's also above average.
Nope, it's average even with the 3 outlier seasons (2011-2013) thrown in. Career wRC+ of 100, career OPS of .737 for those who prefer more traditional stats.
quote:
None of these guys are close defensively to Molina. I'm not sure he's first ballot, but I find it hard to believe that one of the best defensive players ever at his position would be left out entirely.
Jason Kendall was a really good defensive catcher, but I digress. My point was to show that with defense AND hitting included, Molina doesn't stack up. WAR certainly isn't perfect but it does a better job of evaluating a player's overall contribution to his team than anything else we can use.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:16 am to DallasTiger45
The lowest OPS+ of any modern post WW2 era catcher in the HOF is Gary Carter at 115. Molina is currently sitting at 98
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:20 am to JasonMason
quote:
Just curious what metrics you are using to cite league average?
OPS+ and wRC+. First is your OPS plus adjustments for the time period you played in. 100 is average. He has a career OPS of 98.
wRC+ Runs created per PA with adjustments for time period and park adjustments. 100 is league average, his career wRC+ is 100
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:23 am to DallasTiger45
quote:
And the reason Posey plays so much first base is because his bat is actually worth keeping in the lineup when he isn't catching. Yadi is has been a replacement level hitter or worse for all but 3 seasons of his career.
The flip side to this is that they value his bat over his defense and that's why they'd move him from catcher. I don't know that that necessarily strengthens Molina's argument, but the reason for moving him is for longevity of his career because physically catching takes a toll on you more than the other positions.
The longevity of the number of games and innings Molina has caught are also impressive and should be taken into consideration with the position I feel.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:25 am to DallasTiger45
quote:
That's irrelevant because Mauer accumulated more WAR in the time he was catching than Yadi will during his entire career.
Nearly 30% of his starts over that time were at other positions. He only caught 100+ games in 5 seasons and will finish his career with significantly more games started at other positions.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:27 am to JasonMason
quote:
The longevity of the number of games and innings Molina has caught are also impressive and should be taken into consideration with the position I feel.
It's a commendable effort, but you don't put guys in the HOF because he played a lot. His hitting is just too poor.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:28 am to The Seaward
quote:
I don't know about Molina in the HoF, but I do believe he may be underrated by WAR. WAR doesn't take into account pitch framing or calling a game/managing a staff. Two things Molina supposedly excels at.
One thing the Hall of Fame loves is people who are good at subjective and very difficult to quantify things. Can the story of baseball be told without mentioning Yadier Molina, yes. I just don't think he meets their usual standard.
The people that think Yadi should be inducted probably also think Torii Hunter should be inducted.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:31 am to Speedy G
quote:
WAR leaves a lot out when measuring a catcher's contribution. Fangraphs ever admits that "catcher WAR is probably the least precise of all of the positions."
That actually widens the gap between him an the other catchers in the hall, it doesn't shrink it despite what people think.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:33 am to barry
quote:
The lowest OPS+ of any modern post WW2 era catcher in the HOF is Gary Carter at 115. Molina is currently sitting at 98
Pudge Rodriguez is at 106, and he's going to make it too (unless steroids keep him out).
Molina is third all-time in catcher gold gloves and will probably catch Johnny Bench.
Anyone who thinks 10 gold gloves at catcher doesn't get you in the Hall doesn't understand baseball (or is just a butthurt Reds fan).
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:34 am to barry
quote:
It's a commendable effort, but you don't put guys in the HOF because he played a lot. His hitting is just too poor.
That wasn't really my point. I guess I didn't really relay it properly. My point was that he wouldn't be playing that many games and innings at the position as a league average hitter if his defense wasn't elite. Hitting is a big part of the game and obviously the more sexy part statistically, but I don't think you can write off someone who is in the top 5 defensively for the position all time. I guess I'd use Ozzie Smith as a comparison.
This post was edited on 9/29/16 at 11:35 am
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:35 am to Speedy G
If Charles Johnson isn't a hall of famer, I think Yadi fails for the same reasons.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:37 am to therick711
quote:
If Charles Johnson isn't a hall of famer, I think Yadi fails for the same reasons.
Charles Johnson is a good comp as a hitter, but as good as Charles Johnson was a defender, he's not on the same tier as Molina.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:37 am to JasonMason
quote:
but as good as Charles Johnson was a defender, he's not on the same tier as Molina.
That's ridiculous.
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:38 am to therick711
quote:
That actually widens the gap between him an the other catchers in the hall, it doesn't shrink it despite what people think.
Wut?
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:39 am to Speedy G
quote:
Wut?
The WAR of the other catchers in the hall is similarly undervalued. So the gap he has to make up widens. He isn't 2.5 times better than Sandy Alomar at intangible or unquantifiable things such that they are remotely the same in terms of value.
This post was edited on 9/29/16 at 11:41 am
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:40 am to Speedy G
quote:
Pudge Rodriguez is at 106, and he's going to make it too (unless steroids keep him ou
He played till 40. His 7 year peak of WAR is 39.7, only behind Carter,Bench and Pizza.
Molina's CAREER WAR is 32.9. His 7 year peak is 26.5.
Pudges 7 year peak of OPS+ was 129
Posted on 9/29/16 at 11:45 am to therick711
quote:
That's ridiculous.
I've already posted this link, and admittedly I haven't done the research to see what all metrics it's aggregating but Charles Johnson isn't close. He also has half the gold gloves of molina in the same amount of time.
Total Zone Runs as Catcher
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