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Posted on 8/1/13 at 6:11 am to Gardevoir
quote:
Gardevoir
Your true troll has come out. You don't want a good healthy debate. You're not interested in any perspective other than your own.
The following statements have NOTHING to do with whether Alabama deserved a Rematch after losing at home and not winning their division or conference with Big 12 Champ OSU not even getting a chance to face the SEC Champ:
quote:
At least Alabama doesn't lose to bad teams nowadays, can LSU say the same?
quote:
I've just pointed out the remarkable similarities between your 2003 season and our 2012 season. They're practically equal
quote:
In 2003, you didn't even face the Big 12 champ, and you only won by 7!
Lord knows what would have happened if you faced 2003 USC.
quote:
What are you going to do: discredit 2011 Arkansas? You didn't take the lead against them until late in the second quarter, and that was after the Honey Badger gave your team the spark they needed to win the ball game.
quote:
Nice stat. I can bring up LSU's bad losses in the same time span. What happens if we go back to 2009? 2008? Right, it doesn't make LSU look so good
On the rare occasions you actually manage to get back to the issue at hand, 2011 Alabama vs. OSU, you sound like a petulant child:
quote:
It's easy to stand shitty images that support your stance.
It's a "shitty image" because it directly proves the argument against you???
And if it's so easy to stand behind such images, I'd love to see the image that perfectly sums up Alabama's superior claim over OSU. I really would. Please post
quote:
Do you really want to turn this into a debate regarding the strength of the rankings?
Well, what is this a debate about if not the strength of the rankings??? You rest your hat on the BCS placing Alabama in the NCG (STRICTLY due to the rankings btw, because 5/7 objective computer polls ranked OSU #2 LINK), not to mention 71% of the over 48,000 fans across the country that voted as evidenced by the "shitty image" already provided.
Had OSU not had any votes lower than FOURTH, OSU would have been #2. It took several ethically questionable voters to put OSU FIFTH or SIXTH for Alabama to finish at #2 above them.
After their loss to LSU, Alabama beat 6-6 Mississippi State by 17, FCS Georgia Southern by 24 while giving up 300 yards rushing, and 7-5 Auburn by 28.
What about that screams at voters that Alabama was actually deserving of playing a team they already lost to 3 games before for the national championship over an at least equally deserving Big 12 champ that had not had the opportunity to play the #1 team yet and was coming off of a 34 point beatdown of the former #1 team in the country that had been in the top 10 throughout the year?
You give so little respect to an obviously very good 2011 OSU team that it clearly shows your inability to be at all impartial. You dismiss OSU's Big 12 Championship team as a video game team the same way many dismissed Oregon's ability to compete against an elite SEC team like Auburn before the 2010 NCG, and that game was literally a tie game until the very last play of the game.
That is quite simply idiotic or just a dishonest.
No one here is badmouthing your excellent coach or premiere program. Even if Alabama hadn't been handed a Rematch in 2011, they would still be easily considered one of the top two programs in the country because of their recruiting prowess and excellent coaching.
You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would argue with Saban being referred to as the best coach in the country.
Pointing out that his teams have had late season home losses isn't an indictment on the program. It's a fact that I'm sure even Saban himself would say it's something that he desperately wants to stop.
So you getting all bent out of shape and bringing up 2003 or 2012 when anyone points out the injustice of the 2011 scenario just shows your inability to tell us how Alabama actually was deserving over OSU.
This post was edited on 8/1/13 at 7:09 am
Posted on 8/1/13 at 6:49 am to Gardevoir
Thoughts?
1.Not reading 8 pages of a thread started by a gump.
2. Saban would have whined his way into a mulligan no matter who ELSE SHOULD have been #2.
3.I have always wondered how much it cost bama to buy the integrity of the coaches that voted OSU down to get little whiney bitch to stop begging. I hope he wore kneepads at all his sessions.
Edited to add: Short enough Not to need kneepads. Lol
1.Not reading 8 pages of a thread started by a gump.
2. Saban would have whined his way into a mulligan no matter who ELSE SHOULD have been #2.
3.I have always wondered how much it cost bama to buy the integrity of the coaches that voted OSU down to get little whiney bitch to stop begging. I hope he wore kneepads at all his sessions.
Edited to add: Short enough Not to need kneepads. Lol
This post was edited on 8/1/13 at 6:56 am
Posted on 8/1/13 at 6:54 am to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Well just like Bama, Oregon already had their shot and lost, so it still should have been Oklahoma State.
seriously, its not that complicated IMO
even if Florida and Alabama were the best two teams at the end of 2009 we didn't put them up against each other in the BCS NCG because they had already played the game. Similarly the voters didn't put Michigan up against tOSU in 2006 when pretty much everyone thought they were the best two teams (instead they honored the regular season game and gave Florida a shot)
This post was edited on 8/1/13 at 6:55 am
Posted on 8/1/13 at 8:44 am to BB
No because we're LSU
Posted on 8/1/13 at 9:42 am to Gardevoir
quote:
but the 2011 season national championship was not the biggest WTF. Nebraska 2001 and Oklahoma 2003 were much worse.
Nebraska 2001 was worse, but not by much. 2003 Oklahoma at least won their division and was much more accomplished than 2011 Alabama.
quote:
A team that gets blown out in its conference championship game does not deserve a spot in the national championship.
But a team who doesn't even win their division, does deserve it? I guess you believe that to be the case. OU was 1-1 vs top teams, just like Alabama and had an extra game.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 9:57 am to Gardevoir
quote:
There is no need for the insults; I'm not a Gump.
Well, you ignored all of my other arguments made in this thread. But I'm not calling you a hypocrite. I'm saying your statement was hypocritical. Just like a person can lie without being a Liar, because every single person has told at least one lie in their life. But calling out USC for not taking care of business is incredibly hypocritical from a Bama fan. Bama hasn't taken care of business either, yet they've been rewarded.
quote:
Did 2007 Ohio State finish the season strong? They lost their second to last regular season game and didn't play in a conference championship game.
No. They did not. But it's not my argument that a team must take care of business. It is YOUR argument, which is why I flipped the scenario. i'm not the one who claimed a team has to take care of business or anything. I'm the one who argued about the importance of winning your conference above all else, as it makes the regular season more meaningful. So yes, OSU won their conference.
quote:
Again, 2001 Nebraska and 2003 Oklahoma finished the season as weak as you can possibly get but still made the title game.
Which I pointed out earlier. those were also abominations. I f'n hate the BCS. The way it has devalued conference titles is abhorrent to me, as a longtime college football fan. It started in 2001, and continued through 2011. I completely agree, Oregon should've played for the title in '01 and USC in '03. And Okie St in '11.
See how my position is internal consistent, and not dependent on which team I like? Ask the USC fans on the MSB fans if I like the Trojans.
The problem with your argument is that you start from the point that "Alabama should've been in the title game" and then you construct an argument around proving that point. Which is fine, but you have to expect to be called out on it.
quote:
2006 Michigan wasn't given a rematch after losing a close one at Ohio State and rightfully so; it was the last game of their season. After the fact, Ohio State and them were blown out in their respective bowls. Why are people defending teams that were exposed in their bowl games?
Maybe because selectors don't have the Sight and can't see the future? They have to make their selection based on the data on hand, at the time. They can't make a decision based on future data because they aren't precogs. Also, we have no idea how that team would've played had they not been screwed in the bowl selection. K-State had a habit of sleep walking through their games after getting hosed out of the BCS over the years. Can't blame them, either.
quote:
If Oklahoma State's loss to Iowa Sate and near misses with Texas A&M, Kansas State, and Stanford mean nothing to you guys, then I don't know what to say.
The losss, of course, means something. It just doesn't mean EVERYTHING. I prefer to rank teams by their wins, not their losses. I care what your accomplishments are. So, of course the ISU loss matters. It was also on the road, after a short week, after a campus tragedy, in overtime, and on a controversial call. As far as losses go, it isn't a crippling one.
As for close games against A&M, KSU, and Stanford... is your argument, seriously, that Okie State beat a lot of really good teams? Stanford was arguably the 4th or 5th best team in the country. Yeah, I'm impressed by a win over them. KSU was really good. So was A&M. Know what we call narrow escapes? WINS. Wins are a good thing, and those were really good wins.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:08 am to la_birdman
quote:
We beat Bama in the regular season. On the road. That should've counted. Lucky for you, it didn't. It was still a dumb match up.
One team wins the division and the conference.
The other team, in the same division, does neither and is also beaten on the road.
But they still get to the national championship game. That's BS. It wouldn't happen to any other team.
I guess the games during the season only kinda count, if you're Bama, at least. Right?
ETA: Not trying to be a jerk but it makes no sense. Not trying to dump on you personally.
I apologize if I ticked you off.
Thank you. You were very polite and understanding.
I understand the mentality that Oklahoma State deserved their chance since Oregon and Alabama had blown their opportunities, but who wants to watch the national championship if the two best teams aren't featured? I wouldn't. Based on a variety of factors, I'm certain Alabama would have crushed anyone else in the country. LSU was the toughest possible opponent for Alabama. Perhaps, Alabama didn't deserve a shot to play LSU again, but no one else deserved to be put on the field against Alabama but you. Seriously, the 2011 defense's worst games statistically was against Georgia Southern where they gave up 14 points and 341 yards. 121 of those yards were on two big plays where Georgia Southern caught Alabama sleeping. I'd also like to point out that Georgia Southern's offense only scored points in the second quarter. The triple option is difficult to defend when your team or program isn't used to playing those teams. Take away those two big touchdown scores, and people would say Alabama did an excellent job holding Georgia Southern's offense to 0 points and 220 yards.
I don't think anyone would score more than 21 points on Alabama without great help from the Special Teams or Defense. Alabama missed 3 kicks against LSU, 1 was blocked. I'll say Alabama left at least 4 points off the board because the unblocked kick and extra point were within Shelley's range. LSU's elite defense kept them in the game early, but as the game wore on Alabama continued not to have great scoring success but managed to earn 21 points against the second best defense in the country. South Carolina was ranked the 3rd best defense in the country and had a higher pass defense, but performances against Georgia and Arkansas show how great a gap there was between the #2 defense and the #3 defense. Alabama and LSU's defenses were closer than South Carolina and LSU's were. The difference between Alabama and LSU's defense was a small valley. The difference between LSU and South Carolina's defenses was a canyon.
I respect your 2011 team. The Special Teams and defense are some of the best I've seen since I started watching football a few years ago. I haven't seen Special Teams that dominant on TV or in replays ever. I've only observed one defense that was better than that since I started watching football. Be proud of 13-0.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:14 am to Baloo
quote:
quote:
Did 2007 Ohio State finish the season strong? They lost their second to last regular season game and didn't play in a conference championship game.
No. They did not. But it's not my argument that a team must take care of business. It is YOUR argument, which is why I flipped the scenario.
The other obvious problem with bringing up Ohio State in 2007 is that they were the clear #1. They were the only contender with 1 loss. Everyone else had 2.
Alabama and OSU had the same number of losses, so clearly the scenarios are not even comparable at all and he is just deflecting yet again.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:14 am to BB
quote:
Please answer this question honestly: if Alabama wins the close game in Tuscaloosa and all other game outcomes hold (...and Alabama beats Georgia), does LSU get into the BCSCG?
No, apparently the teams chosen was meant to be unfair one way or another. It sucks that Miles' and Nick Saban's Alabama's best teams fell in the same year. Both were close to being GOAT candidates.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:14 am to Gardevoir
quote:
Alabama missed 3 kicks against LSU, 1 was blocked. I'll say Alabama left at least 4 points off the board because the unblocked kick and extra point were within Shelley's range
A team can attempt a field goal from their own 20 yard line if they wish.Merely signaling the kicking team out on the field doesn't mean the kick should count. It was obvious the kicker was off and two in regulation were very long. The play run on 3rd down in OT was an awful call from the sidelines.
Never understood while Tide fans have immediate talking points on all the points left off the scoreboard, they refuse to concede LSU left four off before halftime due to the clock running out at the Alabama one forcing a field goal instead of a touchdown.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:19 am to Gardevoir
It's a fact that Oklahoma St beat more ranked teams than Bama beat teams with a winning record. bama beat 3 teams above .500 and OK St beat 5 ranked teams.
Again, the bcs says nothing to do with the two best teams. It's says #1 vs. # 2 and every single years , except 2011 those #1  are decided by resume. Never has, mattered more than who you beat when the resume's at that far apart. I've been watching CFB religiously for 25 years and I've never once seem resume disregarded for the ,EYEBALL TEST. Never.
Also on 11/5 4 OF Bama's 5 missed fgs would've been career highs for your kicker. 40+ fgs are made 65% BY PRO KICKERS. To suggest that 40 + yard fgs are automatic points left off the board is laughable. From the beginning of the second quarter until the end of the game, LSU OUTGAINED Bama's offense. Bama made it inside LSU's 20 ONE TIME. ONCE. LSU WAS INSIDE YOUR 10 twice. You also say LSU's points were from Bama mistakes, but never mention that every single one of Bama's points came from JLee firing the ball directly into a Bama's defender's gut, yet this were forced by Bama and Bama's turnovers were from Bama mistakes, not because of LSU's defense. Lets just forget that in overtime, LSU's defense pushed Bama's offense backwards and into a long fg while LSU was a shoe string from scoring on a 20 yard option.
You're dumb for thinking Bama deserved to be in that game. That graphic you dismissed showed that every single state believed OSU should've been there.
Again, the bcs says nothing to do with the two best teams. It's says #1 vs. # 2 and every single years , except 2011 those #1  are decided by resume. Never has, mattered more than who you beat when the resume's at that far apart. I've been watching CFB religiously for 25 years and I've never once seem resume disregarded for the ,EYEBALL TEST. Never.
Also on 11/5 4 OF Bama's 5 missed fgs would've been career highs for your kicker. 40+ fgs are made 65% BY PRO KICKERS. To suggest that 40 + yard fgs are automatic points left off the board is laughable. From the beginning of the second quarter until the end of the game, LSU OUTGAINED Bama's offense. Bama made it inside LSU's 20 ONE TIME. ONCE. LSU WAS INSIDE YOUR 10 twice. You also say LSU's points were from Bama mistakes, but never mention that every single one of Bama's points came from JLee firing the ball directly into a Bama's defender's gut, yet this were forced by Bama and Bama's turnovers were from Bama mistakes, not because of LSU's defense. Lets just forget that in overtime, LSU's defense pushed Bama's offense backwards and into a long fg while LSU was a shoe string from scoring on a 20 yard option.
You're dumb for thinking Bama deserved to be in that game. That graphic you dismissed showed that every single state believed OSU should've been there.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:22 am to Gardevoir
quote:
Based on a variety of factors, I'm certain Alabama would have crushed anyone else in the country
Actually, an idea as absolute as that can only be founded on one factor: your heart.
You are clearly a huge Alabama fan. You love them and think they are the cat's meow.
But BEFORE 1/9, that was simply a ludicrous proposition.
Even the voters that put them ahead of OSU likely wouldn't make a statement like that because they would probably lose their vote in the poll the following year.
Sure, many people could reasonably believe that Alabama was the best team at that point based on their close loss to LSU, but anyone saying Alabama would "certainly crush" anyone else in the country is just as stupid as an LSU fan claiming the same thing.
You see, you believe that LSU would have been handed the title if OSU had been selected. As a rational LSU fan, I can tell you that is a preposterous statement.
Do I think we were better than OSU? Yes I do. Do I think we would have won the game? Yes I do.
But I would never assume that as a fact, and would be embarrassed by any LSU fans that would as well. Those are type of "fans" that represent the idiotic part of my fan base, which I can only assume is the part of Alabama's fan base in which you reside.
You are not trying to have an open and honest discourse, and that has become clearer and clearer with every post, most notably this little nugget right here:
quote:
LSU was the toughest possible opponent for Alabama. Perhaps, Alabama didn't deserve a shot to play LSU again, but no one else deserved to be put on the field against Alabama but you.
No one else deserved to be put on the field against Alabama but LSU????
Your hindsight bias and backwards perspective is comical at this point. LSU BEAT ALABAMA. Convincing or not in YOUR eyes, the scoreboard tells no lies.
The question was who deserved to be put on the field against LSU, not the other way around, Gump (I can now feel comfortable referring to you by that tag).
This post was edited on 8/1/13 at 10:28 am
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:22 am to Tiger Voodoo
There's no way to prove that Alabama was better than Oklahoma State; the two teams never played. Alabama had an elite secondary and an even better rushing defense. Oklahoma State would need a few uncharacteristic huge plays against Alabama to score enough to even have a chance against Alabama. Oklahoma State was a very good team; Alabama was great. Some here are following the logic that facing a much tougher schedule makes you the better team; that's not true. Florida and Georgia had identical regular season records prior to the SEC Championship game in 2012 despite Florida playing a much tougher schedule. Also, Florida did not have an embarrassing 35-7 beatdown at the hands of another team. They beat South Carolina 44-11. Georgia won the East under the broken current system of determining division champions. I know they gave Alabama a tough game, but I'm sure Florida and maybe South Carolina could too.
I may be changing the topics, but it's helping me point out how certain arguments don't work because different or worse scenarios occurred in other years. I'm not a troll; I don't hate your team.
I may be changing the topics, but it's helping me point out how certain arguments don't work because different or worse scenarios occurred in other years. I'm not a troll; I don't hate your team.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:25 am to Gardevoir
ONLY TOUGH GAME AT HOMELSU beats Bama in Bama and wins the west and for winning that game LSU has to go to Georgia and beat a top 10 Georgia for the right to play the SEC west runner up? Yeah that's far. If you're anyone other than a GUMP( and some gumps. I've actually gotten some level headed gumps to admit that losing their ONLY TOUGH GAME ALL YEAR , AT HOME,
should've disqualified them from a national title)you admit OSU deserved to be there.
Team a: beat 5 ranked teams and 6 with a winning record
Team b: beat 2 ranked teams and 3 with a winning record.
Which team ha a better résumé?
should've disqualified them from a national title)you admit OSU deserved to be there.
Team a: beat 5 ranked teams and 6 with a winning record
Team b: beat 2 ranked teams and 3 with a winning record.
Which team ha a better résumé?
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:27 am to molsusports
quote:
seriously, its not that complicated IMO
even if Florida and Alabama were the best two teams at the end of 2009 we didn't put them up against each other in the BCS NCG because they had already played the game. Similarly the voters didn't put Michigan up against tOSU in 2006 when pretty much everyone thought they were the best two teams (instead they honored the regular season game and gave Florida a shot)
Are you honestly comparing a 32-13 blowout loss in the SEC Championship to a 9-6 OT home loss the first game in November. Many thought that Alabama and LSU were the two best teams in the country — hence they were ranked #1 and #2 headed into the game. A close loss and blowout are both a loss, but they aren't remotely comparable. In a close loss not involving garbage scores, that means the losing team had a great chance if not several missed opportunities to win the game. In a blowout, the better team that day won, plain and simple.
Again, 2006 Michigan and Ohio State were exposed in their bowl games. It doesn't matter what people thought before the game since we learned after the games were played that neither were the best.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:35 am to Gardevoir
quote:
Again, 2006 Michigan and Ohio State were exposed in their bowl games. It doesn't matter what people thought before the game
Uh, it most certainly does matter because THAT IS WHEN THE DECISION WAS MADE.
Based on your logic by the voters handing Alabama a rematch, the voters that had Michigan #2 before the OSU game should have kept them there since the game was so close and it appeared that they were the two best teams.
Florida should have been in the Sugar Bowl while OSU and Michigan played again with the crystal on the line to find out who was "really" the best.
I'm sure most Michigan fans felt that they should have won that first game, just like the Bama fans felt they should have.
Oh, and Michigan lost AT Ohio State. At least they didn't lose at home.
This post was edited on 8/1/13 at 10:38 am
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:39 am to Gardevoir
quote:
I understand the mentality that Oklahoma State deserved their chance since Oregon and Alabama had blown their opportunities, but who wants to watch the national championship if the two best teams aren't featured? I wouldn't. Based on a variety of factors, I'm certain Alabama would have crushed anyone else in the country.
Well, no one much wanted to watch the rematch, as it got awful ratings. So if we're talking about "what do the people want?" Bama clearly loses.
What I really hate about this argument is this assumption that obviously Bama was the best team. Like people were arguing for OSU because they were a weaker squad. Nothing of the sort. OSU had the better objective resume. Bama had a better subjective quality, according to its backers. Frankly, the eyeball test is frequently wrong. We all "knew" that Ohio St was much better than Florida in 2006 and was going to kill them. I'm always loathe to accept that we "know" one team is better based on the eyeball test.
It's just confirmation bias and fitting a team in the narrative. We don't know squat because there's barely any data out there. But we can rate objective criteria. It's why resume matters more. Who did you beat? What did you accomplish? Everything else is just BS.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:39 am to Vlad The Inhaler
quote:
But a team who doesn't even win their division, does deserve it? I guess you believe that to be the case. OU was 1-1 vs top teams, just like Alabama and had an extra game.
Holy shite. Y'all are really going to be particular about winning your division. 2003 Ole Miss and LSU had identical division record. LSU got blown out at home by a Florida team that Ole Miss defeated. LSU won a close one over Ole Miss on the road. Take from that what you will, but you've got to appreciate Ole Miss losing to Memphis and Texas Tech; one cannot describe how much that helped you r case in the BCS standings.
Also, how can you logically compare a blowout in your conference championship game (last game of the regular season) to a low-scoring OT loss at home the first weekend of November? Neither Oklahoma nor Alabama won their conferences their respective years. Oklahoma State did not play in a conference championship game that season. I don't consider having the best record in a round robin schedule to make you the best. Kansas State and Oklahoma had identical records in the Big 12 last season. Kansas State narrowly won the head to head early in the season but was blown out 52-24 later by a rising Baylor team. Kansas State also benefited from not playing Notre Dame and the cancellation of the Oregon game. I can't comment on whether Notre Dame or Kansas State was the better team, but you cannot deny that Kansas benefited from the canceled Oregon game. Look at the Fiesta Bowl. Oregon blew out Kansas State.
Posted on 8/1/13 at 10:42 am to Gardevoir
quote:
but who wants to watch the national championship if the two best teams aren't featured? I wouldn't.
So you didn't watch Bama vs. ND?
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