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re: Philosophy: Do you believe in a deterministic or indeterministic universe?
Posted on 2/24/15 at 10:05 am to rbWarEagle
Posted on 2/24/15 at 10:05 am to rbWarEagle
Sure it does. It's why free will exists.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 10:09 am to MountainTiger
Explain. If the movement of small quantum particles is random (and thus, unpredictable), how does that make our "free will" different than random probability? You can't just say "quantum mechanics" = free will.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 10:36 am to rbWarEagle
The universe is a lot of little particles flying around all over the place. If it were possible in principle to know both the momentum and position of all of those particles, then everything that happens in the future would be preordained. The entire history of the universe would be determined by the initial conditions of all of those particles. Every decision you make would be just the playing out of of a script that was written at the creation of the universe. Since that's not possible, even in principle, the future of the universe is not predetermined.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 10:56 am to MountainTiger
quote:
The universe is a lot of little particles flying around all over the place. If it were possible in principle to know both the momentum and position of all of those particles, then everything that happens in the future would be preordained. The entire history of the universe would be determined by the initial conditions of all of those particles. Every decision you make would be just the playing out of of a script that was written at the creation of the universe. Since that's not possible, even in principle, the future of the universe is not predetermined.
Again, that does nothing for free will except further complicate it. I think you are confusing determinism with predeterminism. Cause -> effect. Initial conditions of the universe -> current state of the universe. Now, though, we are just talking about determinism vs. indeterminism. You haven't explained how free will could exist in your indeterministic universe.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 11:06 am to rbWarEagle
Consider the wisdom of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure...
Abraham Lincoln: seven minutes ago... we, your forefathers, were brought forth upon a most excellent adventure conceived by our new friends, Bill... and Ted. These two great gentlemen are dedicated to a proposition which was true in my time, just as it's true today. Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
[Bill and Ted are in Ancient Greece]
Bill: [approaching Socrates] How's it going? I'm Bill, this is Ted. We're from the future.
Socrates: Socrates.
Ted: [whispering to Bill] Now what?
Bill: I dunno. Philosophize with him!
Ted: [clears his throat, to Socrates] "All we are is dust in the wind," dude.
[Socrates gives them a blank stare]
Bill: [scoops up a pile of dust from the basin before them and lets it run out of his hand] Dust.
[he blows the remainder away]
Bill: Wind.
Ted: [points at Socrates] Dude.
[Socrates gasps]
Abraham Lincoln: seven minutes ago... we, your forefathers, were brought forth upon a most excellent adventure conceived by our new friends, Bill... and Ted. These two great gentlemen are dedicated to a proposition which was true in my time, just as it's true today. Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
[Bill and Ted are in Ancient Greece]
Bill: [approaching Socrates] How's it going? I'm Bill, this is Ted. We're from the future.
Socrates: Socrates.
Ted: [whispering to Bill] Now what?
Bill: I dunno. Philosophize with him!
Ted: [clears his throat, to Socrates] "All we are is dust in the wind," dude.
[Socrates gives them a blank stare]
Bill: [scoops up a pile of dust from the basin before them and lets it run out of his hand] Dust.
[he blows the remainder away]
Bill: Wind.
Ted: [points at Socrates] Dude.
[Socrates gasps]
Posted on 2/24/15 at 11:13 am to rbWarEagle
quote:
Where do the thoughts in your conscious mind arise from? You know, the thoughts that inspire action (intent)... where do those come from?
Now this is a great question.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 11:24 am to beejon
quote:
Now this is a great question.
The answer, to our best knowledge, is that the thoughts are caused by electrochemical processes (obviously beneath our level of conscious awareness), constrained by our DNA, as a response to our environment and physiological/biological need.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 11:40 am to rbWarEagle
What is predeterminism? What's the difference between that and determinism? If the future state of the universe is determined by the state at any other point in time, then obviously there can be no free will. Uncertainty is what allows free will.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:07 pm to MountainTiger
Predeterminism is the idea that the path is already known (by fate, God, what have you). Determinism = cause ---> effect.
Correct, unless you are Daniel Dennett.
An assumption that you, still, have yet to explain.
quote:
If the future state of the universe is determined by the state at any other point in time, then obviously there can be no free will.
Correct, unless you are Daniel Dennett.
quote:
Uncertainty is what allows free will.
An assumption that you, still, have yet to explain.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:16 pm to rbWarEagle
I am a determinist, in that I believe everything is a consequence of the initial explosion of the universe into existence. But our minds and emotions are so complex, that it gives the very convincing illusion that we're in control. So for all intents and purposes, we have free will.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:43 pm to rbWarEagle
It's not an assumption. The fact that you can't know the future state of the universe is what allows for free will. If the future state of the universe is known (or knowable) then there is no free will. That is self-evident.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:47 pm to Grim
quote:
very convincing illusion that we're in control
=/=
quote:
we have free will.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:48 pm to MountainTiger
quote:
It's not an assumption
Yes it is.
quote:
The fact that you can't know the future state of the universe is what allows for free will.
Perhaps it allows a framework for free will to operate, but you still haven't explained HOW it operates.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:50 pm to rbWarEagle
I give up. If you're going to dispute what assumptions I'm making then we have no basis for a conversation.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:56 pm to rbWarEagle
I'm not sure, because there is no way I could possibly understand the universe enough to be sure.
I am an amalgamation of atoms, set in such a way that I am the universe become aware of itself, albiet in a limited manner. A set of chemical reactions that allows me to experience life, to catalogue it, and have the ever-mysterious phenomenon that is consciousness.
I am an amalgamation of atoms, set in such a way that I am the universe become aware of itself, albiet in a limited manner. A set of chemical reactions that allows me to experience life, to catalogue it, and have the ever-mysterious phenomenon that is consciousness.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 12:59 pm to MountainTiger
quote:
I give up. If you're going to dispute what assumptions I'm making then we have no basis for a conversation.
All I'm asking you to do is explain how free will would operate in an indeterministic universe. If you believe it, you should have some basis for believing it.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 1:04 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Right, that's why I (and many others) call it an illusion.
see this is where I have issue with this type of thought process. Maybe you are correct, maybe our free will is an illusion. But it is hard to say that what I experience isn't really the way it happens.
Pretty much you are saying, I experience myself doing X but X is really an illusion of Y and X isn't really true.
quote:
That is the beauty of our consciousness, in my opinion. For instance, your brain makes your vision appear to give you the full scope of your present environment. That is also an illusion, as we know your eyes have blind spots and your brain is filling in the gap. There are plenty of studies like the one I referenced earlier, but we don't quite have the technology to completely rule out free will... yet.
but you talk as we don't have free will, but we don't have enough evidence to prove other wise.
Ok sure the brain fills in the gap, but this is more than just the brain filling in blind spots in our vision. But my experience shows me that I have free will. Just like I experience myself touching things, it is hot, or cold. My experience shows me one thing, and you are saying it isn't really that way.
I don't think your answer proved we don't have free will. All it proves that our brain makes an illusion that we see everything. It doesn't give us the illusion that we see something when we really don't see something. That is what you are claiming. I experience that most of my actions are free, but that is just an illusion there are a fair amount of things I don't have freedom over. An Alcoholic doesn't really have the freedom to choose to drink or not, but someone who casually drinks can decide not to drink, because he has enough freedom of will to choose against it.
My main problem with your argument, is that you are taking a few exceptions to freedom and applying it to the whole. I say we have free will but not every action is free. You are taking a few empirically verified uncontrolled actions and applying it to every action. That is a logically fallacy.
Another smaller problem, but it is still there. If no-one has free will how can we hold anyone responsible for their actions? If someone goes on a shooting rampage and kills 10 people, we don't say he had no control over his actions so we shouldn't punish him. No we probably put him in the chair, unless we figure out he is mentally unstable.
Without free will there is no justification for punishment, because we are all just reactionary animals who act out of our instincts. There is no need for criminal law, because really no-one commits crime, because they aren't free to do it.
This post was edited on 2/24/15 at 1:07 pm
Posted on 2/24/15 at 1:17 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
All I'm asking you to do is explain how free will would operate in an indeterministic universe. If you believe it, you should have some basis for believing it.
I already said that non-determinism allows free will to exist. Free will cannot exist in a deterministic universe. If you want to argue about that, I'm at a loss.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 1:46 pm to rbWarEagle
"A man's born, a man lives, a man dies. Everything outside of that isn't truth, just different shades of opinion."
-Jon Shannow
-Jon Shannow
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